Siddermarkian and Safehold development

The decision was made to help Siddermark develop thier own industry themselves rather than manufacturing the components in Charis and shipping them in. Yes, there will be some key tools Charis will supply, but the primary driver will be Siddermark.

That suggests Siddermark will have to progress in several stages. First is to realign the workforce to think in terms of processes that different people can participate in and not in terms of skills that master craftmen have collected. Second, set and enforce standard weights and measures. Third, add labor saving power tools to each stage in the process. Fourth, evaluate the current process and make alternations as needed.

What occurs to me is when Charis was beginning the process, it was much welthier than Siddermark is now. The changes in processes in a very short period of time means heavy retooling. The cost of retooling will be spread over a much shorter time and fewer items produced. This makes the cost of production very expensive as Siddermark climbs the industrial learning curve.

That suggests that Cayleb will have to either help Siddermark with additional investments to fund this learning process or offer short cuts for Siddermark's development of manufacturing processes. The former is expensive but will make sure the lessons of industrial organization is well learned. The latter is cheaper but would likely handicap Siddermark's industry in their ability to understand just why they do what they do. I am certain Cayleb will make the investment in Siddermark's learning and development. I doubt that Howsmyn can do it by himself.

All in all it appears that the House of Ahrmahk is set to become the Central Bank of Safehold. They will be lenders and investors to replace the CoGA. I wonder if Cayleb will offer loans rebuild war torn countries? I wonder if he will also use those loans to guide a nation's investment in infrastructure? I foresee the Marshall Plan on steriods.

How far off base am I?

PeterZ wrote:snip

How far off base am I?

Bull's eye!!

Howsmyn has sent industrialists to Siddarmark to aid their development. I suppose they will be building steel mills and factories in the near future, providing that the Siddarmark Republic has sufficient iron ore, coal and limestone deposits, which is likely, and trained workers.

Once this technology is established, I don't think it'll take very long for the CoGA's spies to return with the knowledge of what they've been trained in. Thus, technology spreads throughout Safehold.

PeterZ wrote:The decision was made to help Siddermark develop thier own industry themselves rather than manufacturing the components in Charis and shipping them in. Yes, there will be some key tools Charis will supply, but the primary driver will be Siddermark.

That suggests Siddermark will have to progress in several stages. First is to realign the workforce to think in terms of processes that different people can participate in and not in terms of skills that master craftmen have collected. Second, set and enforce standard weights and measures. Third, add labor saving power tools to each stage in the process. Fourth, evaluate the current process and make alternations as needed.

What occurs to me is when Charis was beginning the process, it was much welthier than Siddermark is now. The changes in processes in a very short period of time means heavy retooling. The cost of retooling will be spread over a much shorter time and fewer items produced. This makes the cost of production very expensive as Siddermark climbs the industrial learning curve.

That suggests that Cayleb will have to either help Siddermark with additional investments to fund this learning process or offer short cuts for Siddermark's development of manufacturing processes. The former is expensive but will make sure the lessons of industrial organization is well learned. The latter is cheaper but would likely handicap Siddermark's industry in their ability to understand just why they do what they do. I am certain Cayleb will make the investment in Siddermark's learning and development. I doubt that Howsmyn can do it by himself.

All in all it appears that the House of Ahrmahk is set to become the Central Bank of Safehold. They will be lenders and investors to replace the CoGA. I wonder if Cayleb will offer loans rebuild war torn countries? I wonder if he will also use those loans to guide a nation's investment in infrastructure? I foresee the Marshall Plan on steriods.

How far off base am I?

It can go either way to be honest....

As you point out, Siddarmark is poorer then Charis was, and the time frame is going to be compressed - but I think that there are also mitigating factors that can offset (either partially, or totally) this.

An example, is that Charis had to go through the "make the tools to make the tools" stage - which Siddarmark can skip entirely (as they can buy the final tools already constructed).

Similarly, there is a lot of R&D into tools, definitions of measurements, construction methods, weapons, etc. that Charis had to pay for - which Siddarmark can now skip.


And so I would expect it to cost less for Siddarmark to reach the same stage as Charis is currently at now....

MWadwell wrote:
It can go either way to be honest....

As you point out, Siddarmark is poorer then Charis was, and the time frame is going to be compressed - but I think that there are also mitigating factors that can offset (either partially, or totally) this.

An example, is that Charis had to go through the "make the tools to make the tools" stage - which Siddarmark can skip entirely (as they can buy the final tools already constructed).

Similarly, there is a lot of R&D into tools, definitions of measurements, construction methods, weapons, etc. that Charis had to pay for - which Siddarmark can now skip.


And so I would expect it to cost less for Siddarmark to reach the same stage as Charis is currently at now....

In terms of measurment tools, OWL helped Charis initially and so it is a bit of a wash. I agree that not having to re-invent the wheel for the tools needed to measure will save investment marks. Getting to the same tech level as Charis will be cheaper for Siddermark than it was for Charis in absolute terms.

That level of leapfrogging will have its costs. The degree that Siddermarkians manufacturers will internalize the importance of quality as measured by adhering to standards will not be as deep. The best analogy is to use the influence of Demmings on the Japanese manufacurers. The focus of American manufacturers was not to improve adherence to quality standards but to pump out product and then fix the problems after assembly was complete or through warranty work. I recall reading comments that a Ford manager made that were very similar to Lt Zhwaigair's as that manager compared a Mazda made parts for a Ford Ranger truck. He couldn't believe how consistently the parts matched the standard dimensions. Granted the degree of variance was orders of magnitude different between what Zhwaigair observed and what the Ford manager did.

I doubt that the impact will be this drastic, but Siddermark will have different priorities. At first those priorities will focus on employing people. Later it will focus on producing more "stuff". None of these people will have a boss that has ideals of quality that most mainlanders simply cannot imagine. Because of that and the bootstrapping Charis provided, I doubt Siddermark will be quite as good as Charis is at manufacturing according to a standard. The same logic suggests that most mainlanders will have the same issues and likely worse than Siddermark. Add the necessity of retooling and investing more capital for every bit of re-tooling and there might just be a fundemental mindset of "good enough is good enough" that will seep into Siddermarkian manufacturing.

Anyway, easy terms from Ahrmahk Central Banking Services might mitigate it somewhat. I doubt the other Safeholdian nations will be able to avoid that mindset very well. Especially if relations with Charis remain frosty.

PeterZ wrote:

MWadwell wrote:
It can go either way to be honest....

As you point out, Siddarmark is poorer then Charis was, and the time frame is going to be compressed - but I think that there are also mitigating factors that can offset (either partially, or totally) this.

An example, is that Charis had to go through the "make the tools to make the tools" stage - which Siddarmark can skip entirely (as they can buy the final tools already constructed).

Similarly, there is a lot of R&D into tools, definitions of measurements, construction methods, weapons, etc. that Charis had to pay for - which Siddarmark can now skip.


And so I would expect it to cost less for Siddarmark to reach the same stage as Charis is currently at now....

In terms of measurment tools, OWL helped Charis initially and so it is a bit of a wash. I agree that not having to re-invent the wheel for the tools needed to measure will save investment marks. Getting to the same tech level as Charis will be cheaper for Siddermark than it was for Charis in absolute terms.

That level of leapfrogging will have its costs. The degree that Siddermarkians manufacturers will internalize the importance of quality as measured by adhering to standards will not be as deep. The best analogy is to use the influence of Demmings on the Japanese manufacurers. The focus of American manufacturers was not to improve adherence to quality standards but to pump out product and then fix the problems after assembly was complete or through warranty work. I recall reading comments that a Ford manager made that were very similar to Lt Zhwaigair's as that manager compared a Mazda made parts for a Ford Ranger truck. He couldn't believe how consistently the parts matched the standard dimensions. Granted the degree of variance was orders of magnitude different between what Zhwaigair observed and what the Ford manager did.

I doubt that the impact will be this drastic, but Siddermark will have different priorities. At first those priorities will focus on employing people. Later it will focus on producing more "stuff". None of these people will have a boss that has ideals of quality that most mainlanders simply cannot imagine. Because of that and the bootstrapping Charis provided, I doubt Siddermark will be quite as good as Charis is at manufacturing according to a standard. The same logic suggests that most mainlanders will have the same issues and likely worse than Siddermark. Add the necessity of retooling and investing more capital for every bit of re-tooling and there might just be a fundemental mindset of "good enough is good enough" that will seep into Siddermarkian manufacturing.

Anyway, easy terms from Ahrmahk Central Banking Services might mitigate it somewhat. I doubt the other Safeholdian nations will be able to avoid that mindset very well. Especially if relations with Charis remain frosty.

G'Day PeterZ,

I don't know about Siddarmark "standards". Remember, manufacturing facilities used standards - it is just that everyone's "standard" is different....

So one of the first lessons the Charisian advisors will do, is to emphasis that the standards aren't to be altered. A simple measuring check of all goods prior to acceptance by the army should be easy enough to implement, and should be able to pick up when a manufacturer has deviated from the standard.


And regarding priorities - I think that Siddarmark will have exactly the same as Charis - producing high tech weapons!

Remember, the entire Siddarmark army has become obsolete overnight, and there is now a huge requirement for modern rifles, artillery, mines, etc - without which Siddarmark is toast the moment winter ends.


Regarding quality, Siddarmark actually has it easier - as they can (initially) import experienced Charisian inspectors, while their own are over at Charis Island being trained. This is the same as "make the tools to make the tools" - Siddarmark can skip this step, by bootstrapping off the Charisian developments of training inspectors.


Regarding overall quality (as opposed to weapon quality), that is going to be culturally dependant.

Charis with it's export emphasis is likely to be the "Gold Standard" with regards to quality.

Harchong is almost certainly going to be the other extreme.

Where Siddarmark sits? We'll have to wait and see, as we don't know enough about the culture to be able to judge how high quality it's goods will be.....

MWadwell wrote:snip
And regarding priorities - I think that Siddarmark will have exactly the same as Charis - producing high tech weapons!

Remember, the entire Siddarmark army has become obsolete overnight, and there is now a huge requirement for modern rifles, artillery, mines, etc - without which Siddarmark is toast the moment winter ends.

snip

Howdy, Matt!

Sure that's the priority. How will they look at producing high tech weapons? The size of the Siddermarkian population emphasizes the amount of high tech weapons needed over the just how high the tech is. Charis secured their buffer zone after Darcos and Armeggedon Reef. Charisian society became aware of the risk of invasion and that the threat was averted relatively quickly and painlessly. The same is not true for Siddermark. Siddermark has gone through more than a year of agony and recovery both of which was driven by outside forces. I can see more than a little obsession with regaining control over their own destiny to settle into Siddermarkian society.

That obsession is what I believe will fuel the initial "good enough is good enough" mindset. Being able to field and support from domestic resources an effective fighting force is prioity one for Siddermark. Whether that priority will morph into making the RSA the most potent force on Safehold through tech advances remains to be seen. There will indeed be many factors involved.

PeterZ wrote:

MWadwell wrote:snip
And regarding priorities - I think that Siddarmark will have exactly the same as Charis - producing high tech weapons!

Remember, the entire Siddarmark army has become obsolete overnight, and there is now a huge requirement for modern rifles, artillery, mines, etc - without which Siddarmark is toast the moment winter ends.

snip

Howdy, Matt!

Sure that's the priority. How will they look at producing high tech weapons? The size of the Siddermarkian population emphasizes the amount of high tech weapons needed over the just how high the tech is. Charis secured their buffer zone after Darcos and Armeggedon Reef. Charisian society became aware of the risk of invasion and that the threat was averted relatively quickly and painlessly. The same is not true for Siddermark. Siddermark has gone through more than a year of agony and recovery both of which was driven by outside forces. I can see more than a little obsession with regaining control over their own destiny to settle into Siddermarkian society.

That obsession is what I believe will fuel the initial "good enough is good enough" mindset. Being able to field and support from domestic resources an effective fighting force is prioity one for Siddermark. Whether that priority will morph into making the RSA the most potent force on Safehold through tech advances remains to be seen. There will indeed be many factors involved.

As always, it will depend a LOT on the attitude/values of the guys at the top.

I'm sure that the workers will be working hard - having just fended off 'hanging' will dramatically concentrate minds & hearts there.

It depends upon what lessons are taken from Charis' victories and tech developments. Will they see how crucial the standard issue has been to that? I'm pretty sure that Stohner will once its been pointed out, and I'm also sure that the inner circle will be keeping tabs on the attitudes of key people in the manufacturies..

VERY long time lurker, 1st post.

"Good enough is good enough"

Good point, but as long as there is a war on, remember that "Perfect is the mortal enemy of Good Enough."

Charis showed their understanding of this in OAR and BSRA when they built so many of the original galleons from green wood. They needed what could float and carry a gun NOW, not the perfectly built Ship of the Line NEXT year.

Some the Germans never really understood in WW2.

And RFC, a thousand thanks for the little chat at Larry Smith's table at Archon last year.

Say they upgrade the republic, it means jobs being taken up by machinery. SDome can get the jobs created for the new industries, but still lot of extra labor.
Due to the civil war, there will be areas in need of workers, even if they do get the new farming tools and equipment, so they could absorb the extra men.
Due to the war, there will be a high demand for soldiers.
If the republic is going to expand into the border states, then eventually they will need to send people to help settle them.
I see siddemark exporting alot of raw materials to charis, so those industries that extract, refine or produce it need to be prioritized in their upgrades.