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BB(P/C) for rear area security

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Re: BB(P/C) for rear area security
Post by n7axw   » Tue Mar 11, 2014 10:11 pm

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kzt wrote:
Duckk wrote: Quoting David
The CLAC would remain a light-minute or so away from any anticipated danger,

The problem is that the search volume is actually on the order of 130 LM in radius. So you are in fact deep inside the volume that could well be infested with missile pods, graser torps and other such fun toys. Not to mention the threat that the MAN produces a sphere of spiders 2 LM in radius and waits for a customer to jump into their web.


Where are you coming up with info on spider?

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Re: BB(P/C) for rear area security
Post by kzt   » Tue Mar 11, 2014 11:06 pm

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From the notes in SFtS and MoH.
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Re: BB(P/C) for rear area security
Post by Tenshinai   » Thu Mar 13, 2014 10:27 am

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Jonathan_S wrote:Which actually ties back into the SDM anti pirate unit - the cost savings only really make sense if you need so many hulls you have to compromise by building ones not even slightly capable of standing up to near peer navy units. (WWII convoy escort sloops or corvettes for example)


For clarification if anyone managed to miss it, i´ve NEVER been talking about single drive missile DDs.
Which is why i used the Roland as the base comparison.

Next-gen: A DD around 200kt for the "boring stuff", a CA at 500-600kt and a CL somewhere in between them being the smallest ship expected to get into serious fights.
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Re: BB(P/C) for rear area security
Post by Tenshinai   » Thu Mar 13, 2014 10:47 am

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SWM wrote:No, you were making a straw man argument. And I called you on it. No one was talking about eliminating everything below the size of a battleship, or even replacing everything below the battleship with a single class.


Complete BS.

And frankly, the arguments about "not being able to withstand a fight with a near peer ship"? Try drawing that to its logical conclusion and ALL ships end up being SDs (hence my exaggeration). Especially once you look at Apollo.

And if that was so extremely important, then why was there ANYONE previously building DDs?
When could those DDs ever realistically stand up to a CL? They couldn´t. Still same deal.

And if 2 DDs battled, if one had a tech or size inferiority, it was more likely to loose.
Yet DDs were still built due to NEED.

And while it´s cheaper to build and maintain a single 400kt CL instead of 2 200kt DDs, the CL can only be in one place at a time.
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Re: BB(P/C) for rear area security
Post by Duckk   » Thu Mar 13, 2014 11:03 am

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While the CL usually has some edge over the DD in terms of armament, the difference is primarily in the level of endurance. CLs are built for longer cruises and longer fights. A DD vs CL fight could actually be fairly close, all other things being equal. The disparity between types is a lot smaller than, say, a CA vs. BC or BC vs. BB.
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Re: BB(P/C) for rear area security
Post by fester   » Thu Mar 13, 2014 12:43 pm

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Duckk wrote:While the CL usually has some edge over the DD in terms of armament, the difference is primarily in the level of endurance. CLs are built for longer cruisers and longer fights. A DD vs CL fight could actually be fairly close, all other things being equal. The disparity between types is a lot smaller than, say, a CA vs. BC or BC vs. BB.


Duckk -- my impression from a same peer generation DD v. CL fight was that the CL usually had more offensive weapons, more defensive weapons, deeper magazines for both AND bigger crews for damage control. So it can throw more for longer and defend more effectively than a same technology destroyer.

For example from the Companion:

Noblesse class DD -- 4 missiles, 3 lasers per broadside with 2 counter missiles and 3 PDLC
Courageous class CL -- 7 missiles, 4 energy weapons per broadside with 3 counter missiles and 3 PDLC

The CL has 1.5 counter-missile stations per destroyer missile tube, while the destroyer has less than 1 station per cruiser missile tube.


Culverin -- 5 missiles, 4 lasters, 5 counter missiles, 4 PDLC
Valiant -- 8 missiles, 8 energy weapons, 5 counter missiles and 4 PDLC

Culverin is slightly better defended against Valiant proprotionally than the previous example ( 1.1 counter missile stations per light cruiser missile tube) while Valiant is much better defended proportionally than Courageous at almost 2 counter missile stations per destroyer tube.

I agree completely, there are chances where a destroyer can beat its bigger cousin CL. Usually with ships that light, the first to score a few laser head hits will see its expected win probability increase dramatically, and if the quasi-random nature of missile exchanges allows for the destroyer to get the first few hits, then its odds are decent. But the light cruiser of the same generation of technology should have a significant advantage over a destroyer as it has more defenses to counter less incoming fire.
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Re: BB(P/C) for rear area security
Post by Duckk   » Thu Mar 13, 2014 12:57 pm

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That's why I said could. It's not immediate suicide as it would be in a CL vs CA, CA vs. BC, BC vs. BB, etc. matchup.
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Re: BB(P/C) for rear area security
Post by Theemile   » Thu Mar 13, 2014 1:03 pm

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Duckk wrote:That's why I said could. It's not immediate suicide as it would be in a CL vs CA, CA vs. BC, BC vs. BB, etc. matchup.


The best example of that I can think of the is SLN's WAR Harvest and Bridgeport designs - IIRC the Bridgeport CL is a War Harvest DD stretched with a an extra laser, missile launcher and CM in each broadside as well as a flag facility - Essentially the CL designed to do the same jobs as a DD, just longer and better.
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Re: BB(P/C) for rear area security
Post by Brigade XO   » Thu Mar 13, 2014 5:46 pm

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Duckk wrote:That's why I said could. It's not immediate suicide as it would be in a CL vs CA, CA vs. BC, BC vs. BB, etc. matchup.


Thats true except that with RMN or RHN ships agains SLN ships, the SLN will come out on the broken side even if they are one nominal class larger. The SLN hadn't figured this out yet.
And should a an SLN BC decide to go after a Roland, the Roland is going to be able to get away while beating the snot out of the BC. Give the relative locations available for SLN support except at the end of a couple of the Lacoon II wormhole strings, a beat-up SLN BC is going to do little more than try and slink home to survive.
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Re: BB(P/C) for rear area security
Post by munroburton   » Thu Mar 13, 2014 6:47 pm

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Brigade XO wrote:
Duckk wrote:That's why I said could. It's not immediate suicide as it would be in a CL vs CA, CA vs. BC, BC vs. BB, etc. matchup.


Thats true except that with RMN or RHN ships agains SLN ships, the SLN will come out on the broken side even if they are one nominal class larger. The SLN hadn't figured this out yet.
And should a an SLN BC decide to go after a Roland, the Roland is going to be able to get away while beating the snot out of the BC. Give the relative locations available for SLN support except at the end of a couple of the Lacoon II wormhole strings, a beat-up SLN BC is going to do little more than try and slink home to survive.


Only against the RMN/GSN's new range of DDM classes. Haven hasn't demonstrated anything like the Roland, Sag-C or Nike(or Agamemnon for that matter). Bolthole may yield a few more surprises - I really do look forwards to Hemphill's impressions of that facility.

I do think that given rough parity in tonnage, any Havenite formation would win against Solarians. Unquestionably if equipped with MDM pods. But if they are not, the outcome may be similar to the Battle of Torch.

The only way I see the SLN winning anything or at least inflicting losses is running into a smaller GA force composed of SDM ships - which all Havenite subwallers are.
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