Steam Engines

One of the last new lines of inquiry raised in LAMA was when the idea of steam engines was presented to Clyntahn.

Charisan steam engines use 300 pounds pressure, although early steam engines used a little as 25 pounds. I have know about the principles of steam engines for many years, however, understanding the principles of steam engines does not make them easy.

Examples:

1. Valve Gear
2. Lap and Lead (adjustment of valves)
3. Reverse Gear (Johnson Bar)
4. Sight Glass (for determining boiler water level)
5. Stay bolts (fixed and flexible)
6. Low water alarm
7. Throttle
8. Injectors (to inject water into the boiler against the steam pressure - 2 required)
9. Blower
10. Drain Cocks (on face of backhead to determine water level)
11. Cylinder drain cocks
12. Steam Pressure Gauge
13. Steam Safety Valves
14. Rocker grates (in firebox)

Steam Engines also use AIR to control many of the above.

Steam Engines may throw a wrench in Clyntahn's plans long term but the only thing the knowledge will provide for 2-3 years is an appreciation by Thrisk of the advantages and limitations of steam engines in consultation with his technical guru.

The only caveat to this if the Author expands the principles explained to Clinton, et al, in DETAIL (and books are written on this subject and "hands on" experience was understood to be needed by the readers).

WES wrote:One of the last new lines of inquiry raised in LAMA was when the idea of steam engines was presented to Clyntahn.

Charisan steam engines use 300 pounds pressure, although early steam engines used a little as 25 pounds. I have know about the principles of steam engines for many years, however, understanding the principles of steam engines does not make them easy.

Examples:

1. Valve Gear
2. Lap and Lead (adjustment of valves)
3. Reverse Gear (Johnson Bar)
4. Sight Glass (for determining boiler water level)
5. Stay bolts (fixed and flexible)
6. Low water alarm
7. Throttle
8. Injectors (to inject water into the boiler against the steam pressure - 2 required)
9. Blower
10. Drain Cocks (on face of backhead to determine water level)
11. Cylinder drain cocks
12. Steam Pressure Gauge
13. Steam Safety Valves
14. Rocker grates (in firebox)

Steam Engines also use AIR to control many of the above.

Steam Engines may throw a wrench in Clyntahn's plans long term but the only thing the knowledge will provide for 2-3 years is an appreciation by Thrisk of the advantages and limitations of steam engines in consultation with his technical guru.

The only caveat to this if the Author expands the principles explained to Clinton, et al, in DETAIL (and books are written on this subject and "hands on" experience was understood to be needed by the readers).

Wile you are commenting on this, comment on possibilty of temple making them. I suspect not because precision machine work needed to manufacture and fit the ,moving parts would beyod Temple's reach... Comments?

Don

n7axw wrote:
Wile you are commenting on this, comment on possibilty of temple making them. I suspect not because precision machine work needed to manufacture and fit the ,moving parts would beyod Temple's reach... Comments?

Don

I think a good example would be when Thrisk is examining the set of Charisian rifles. He comments that his personal hunting rifle does have a better trigger, but that is a one of a kind piece made by a master artisan. So yea I think they could make INDIVIDUAL precision parts, just not able to mass produce the things. Or have this marvelous thing called interchangeable parts. So each steam engine would probably be a fairly one of a kind piece that would play holy hell in repairing. Or maintaining.


I think it is a given that they will MAKE a steam engine, no other point for that whole scene to have occurred if RFC isn't going somewhere with it. RFC doing something is a notion I find a laughable at best.

Now will said steam engines be effective, or will they be a resource pit (kinda like German Tiger tanks in WW2) that arguably does more harm then good will have to be seen.


Edit:

Also I would not be terribly surprised if there is a time skip, or lull for a year or two after the church is kicked the hell out of Siddimark. The allies will have a LOT of territory to fix back up, and the church will be reeling. I can't just see RFC abandoning naval conflict, he is to much of a nut for that kinda thing. And unless the church is able to put together actual ironclads, its going to be a case of one sided slaughters once the King Harrolds start entering service.

First you need machine tools to make a steam engine, lathes, milling machines to make precision parts. Fairly close tolerances. To make things slide well machine grinding to get smooth parts. Here are some views of things to make a locomotive:



Remember the temple lands have a technology base roughly equivalent to Tudor England. They had not even invented the Wheel-lock when Merlin arrived. The machine tools must be made before a steam engine can be made. Even with a full set of blue prints they need the tools to make the parts. Here is an American machine shop of the 1830s - 1850s 300 years in advance of Tudor England.



And here machine tools from a 1918 catalog notice how the wood has been replaced by cast iron.



So my question is where the Temple Boys are getting their machine tools. Filing cylinders and using leather piston gaskets and high pressure steam do not mix!

Poker

Something else to keep in mind. Even if the Church could get complete plans for all the tools they need to build the tools to build a steam engine, where would they get the people to operate that equipment? One of Howsmyn's problems all along has been to find and train enough qualified people. And he had the advantage of starting with people who had at least some experience with machine tools, even if they were water driven. The idea of mass production was there, if only in small doses. The Church doesn't even have that much background to start from.

Hello WES,

Welcome to the Forums, enjoy your favorite simulated beverage on the forum.

Thanks for the instrument list!

Kudos for the excellent points!

I think many of us are agreed that knowing the principles doesn't mean you can automatically build a steam engine, let alone the gearing to make it useful.

Getting Watt's pistons and cylinders properly drilled and sealed was almost impossible until John Wilkinson lent a hand.

While our CoGA geniuses may quickly use their cannon boring machinery, "they've only just begun" as your list of controls demonstrate.

While some are intuitive, some result only from painful experience, which also takes a lot of time, which I don't think the Go4 has.

Fultyn and Zhwaigair may telescope the development period considerably, going through the Savery and Newcomen engine stages fairly quickly (their workmen will need the experience), but it will still take some considerable time to learn all the 'unknown unknowns' at this point.

I also believe the steam engine will be a resource sink for the Go4, though they may think they've solved the various problems soon after the war when they get a look at one, though the current Charisian models are so superior, they might be even become more confused.

Spreading steam engine technology across Safehold is one of Merlin's goals, so he'll support their survival and ultimate success after this current war.

But the process will be fun to watch.

L

WES wrote:One of the last new lines of inquiry raised in LAMA was when the idea of steam engines was presented to Clyntahn.

Charisan steam engines use 300 pounds pressure, although early steam engines used a little as 25 pounds. I have know about the principles of steam engines for many years, however, understanding the principles of steam engines does not make them easy.

Examples:

1. Valve Gear
2. Lap and Lead (adjustment of valves)
3. Reverse Gear (Johnson Bar)
4. Sight Glass (for determining boiler water level)
5. Stay bolts (fixed and flexible)
6. Low water alarm
7. Throttle
8. Injectors (to inject water into the boiler against the steam pressure - 2 required)
9. Blower
10. Drain Cocks (on face of backhead to determine water level)
11. Cylinder drain cocks
12. Steam Pressure Gauge
13. Steam Safety Valves
14. Rocker grates (in firebox)

Steam Engines also use AIR to control many of the above.

Steam Engines may throw a wrench in Clyntahn's plans long term but the only thing the knowledge will provide for 2-3 years is an appreciation by Thrisk of the advantages and limitations of steam engines in consultation with his technical guru.

The only caveat to this if the Author expands the principles explained to Clinton, et al, in DETAIL (and books are written on this subject and "hands on" experience was understood to be needed by the readers).

pokermind wrote:First you need machine tools to make a steam engine, lathes, milling machines to make precision parts. Fairly close tolerances. To make things slide well machine grinding to get smooth parts.

So my question is where the Temple Boys are getting their machine tools. Filing cylinders and using leather piston gaskets and high pressure steam do not mix!

First you need a standard of measurement. then you need a standard screw pitch. then its just a lot of work by smart people. i don't think the seals will be much of an issue, RFC has repeatedly stated how good safehold plumbing is.

the first metal mills on earth where basically automatic files, they have a basic lathe in the cannon boring and drills, they just don't know it yet.

i do think it will be a resource pit for the CoG....also how long will the smart people come forward to work on it, if they displease the inquisition by missing a date and lose their head?


laz

By the way, they even made a steam-powered airplane in 1933, with a reversing gear for VERY short landings.

http://blog.modernmechanix.com/worlds-f ... -airplane/

The bigger problem is if they actually do start producing steam engines after they have gone to great lengths to say that the Charisian engines are heretical.

People will start to wonder just how much Heresy was involved in Charis at all if the Church can mimic everything they do, regardless of any writ of exceptions the Grand Inquisitor writes.

Its a very dangerous sheet of ice that they are walking and its one which Merlin has been waiting with nice little tiddy bits.

pokermind wrote:First you need machine tools to make a steam engine, lathes, milling machines to make precision parts. Fairly close tolerances. To make things slide well machine grinding to get smooth parts. Here are some views of things to make a locomotive:



Remember the temple lands have a technology base roughly equivalent to Tudor England. They had not even invented the Wheel-lock when Merlin arrived. The machine tools must be made before a steam engine can be made. Even with a full set of blue prints they need the tools to make the parts. Here is an American machine shop of the 1830s - 1850s 300 years in advance of Tudor England.



And here machine tools from a 1918 catalog notice how the wood has been replaced by cast iron.



So my question is where the Temple Boys are getting their machine tools. Filing cylinders and using leather piston gaskets and high pressure steam do not mix!

Poker

This was my thought. Just as well hand me the blue prints for a BMW. Perhaps a fascinating thing to study, but I'm not going to end up with a BMW.

Don