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Spoiler Kaitswyrth "reinforcements"

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Spoiler Kaitswyrth "reinforcements"
Post by Alistair   » Sun Mar 09, 2014 4:33 pm

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Kaitswyrth has been reinforced by several thousand Desnairians fleeing the distruction of there army.

I suspect that those "reinforcements" will have a shockingly negative effect on the A.O.G

Why?

1.Kaitswyrth army has already been beaten soundly already
2. They are already reeling from the news of the "great Canal raid"
3. hearing about the destruction of the entire Desnair army will only reinforce the sense of despair futility that they already feel.

I suspect if the good guys had enough troops one good hard push would destroy the entire army before they are reinforced by Harchongs troops.

Bottom line desnairs fleeing troops well could be an asset to Charis as they are fleeing with tales of what happened to there army!
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Re: Spoiler Kaitswyrth "reinforcements"
Post by Charybdis   » Sun Mar 09, 2014 5:38 pm

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Alistair wrote:Kaitswyrth has been reinforced by several thousand Desnairians fleeing the distruction of there army.

I suspect that those "reinforcements" will have a shockingly negative effect on the A.O.G

Why?

1.Kaitswyrth army has already been beaten soundly already
2. They are already reeling from the news of the "great Canal raid"
3. hearing about the destruction of the entire Desnair army will only reinforce the sense of despair futility that they already feel.

I suspect if the good guys had enough troops one good hard push would destroy the entire army before they are reinforced by Harchongs troops.

Bottom line desnairs fleeing troops well could be an asset to Charis as they are fleeing with tales of what happened to there army!

I cannot specifically recall but I believe that it was one of the Mongol Khan's war policy to set free 1 in 10 of the captured, AFTER the other 9 were guesomely killed, in order to spread terror to their enemies. It does have an effect BUT it is one of the things that defines barbarians as just that, people outside civil society.

The opposite tact is to treat prisoners well. That concept is that if they know there is no mercy, then the fight is ALWAYS to the death and that also means more of your troops are at risk. If there is mercy, then the opposite applies. I refer to this as progress and it is obvious that it is what RFC is encouraging with the exception of practicing Inquisitors. They are a self-selecting group and less power to them!
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Re: Spoiler Kaitswyrth "reinforcements"
Post by PeterZ   » Sun Mar 09, 2014 5:45 pm

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I suspect that once Symkyn has been reinforced with mounted brigades on their heavy coated Morgans and their ice lizards to haul supplies, Kaitswyrth is toast. That's 75,000 troops armed with breechloading rifles, rifled artillery, mortars and effective winter gear and logistics. I don't see Kaitswyrth surviving the first assault, let alone any sort of retreat.

I suspect that by attacking in winter, Symkyn avoids the risk of having the locks blown. The canals are frozen solid and blowing the locks won't drain the canals as happened in the Guarnak.

Yeah, those "reinforcements" will surely drive morale even lower yet. I doubt it would have mattered much with or without the Desnarii.
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Re: Spoiler Kaitswyrth "reinforcements"
Post by KNick   » Sun Mar 09, 2014 6:21 pm

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At this point, if I where the Inner Circle, I would wait until I was absolutely certain that news of the disaster had reached Zion. Then I would have OWL post broadsides only in Zion about what had happened. Nowhere else. :twisted: Let word of mouth spread it from there. It would drive Clyntahn and Rayno crazy trying to figure out who had leaked the information.
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Re: Spoiler Kaitswyrth "reinforcements"
Post by jmseeley   » Sun Mar 09, 2014 7:41 pm

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PeterZ wrote:I suspect that once Symkyn has been reinforced with mounted brigades on their heavy coated Morgans and their ice lizards to haul supplies, Kaitswyrth is toast. That's 75,000 troops armed with breechloading rifles, rifled artillery, mortars and effective winter gear and logistics. I don't see Kaitswyrth surviving the first assault, let alone any sort of retreat.

I suspect that by attacking in winter, Symkyn avoids the risk of having the locks blown. The canals are frozen solid and blowing the locks won't drain the canals as happened in the Guarnak.

Yeah, those "reinforcements" will surely drive morale even lower yet. I doubt it would have mattered much with or without the Desnarii.


Kaitswyrth is rather farther south than Wyrshym. Do things freeze up as solidly there? Also, we're already into March. By the time the Alliance gets into position, spring thaw won't be very far away.

As an alternative: What do you think of an advance along the line Thesmar-Dairnyth? It cuts off Dohlar, and once they take Dairnyth they've cut Kaitswyrth's supply line (until the canals up north become operational again).

jms
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Re: Spoiler Kaitswyrth "reinforcements"
Post by PeterZ   » Sun Mar 09, 2014 8:31 pm

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jmseeley wrote:
Kaitswyrth is rather farther south than Wyrshym. Do things freeze up as solidly there? Also, we're already into March. By the time the Alliance gets into position, spring thaw won't be very far away.

As an alternative: What do you think of an advance along the line Thesmar-Dairnyth? It cuts off Dohlar, and once they take Dairnyth they've cut Kaitswyrth's supply line (until the canals up north become operational again).

jms


Recall MTaT when Archbishop Zhayson went to Glacierheart last Winter. They took the frozen canals using ice lizards. So, yes the canals at Glacierheart and further north do freeze. The thaw also delays the further north they move.

Rychtyyr doesn't have enough men to stop Eastshare and the Army of Cliff Peak. Ahlverez will dodge south past Hanth into Silkiah. Between them Hanth, Eastshare and AoCP there will be 180k troopers to march to Dairnyth and secure the Dohlar border.
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Re: Spoiler Kaitswyrth "reinforcements"
Post by lyonheart   » Mon Mar 10, 2014 4:14 am

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Hi Charybdis,

Letting a few POW's from August escape to report how well they were treated will have some effect until they fall into the hands of the inquisition, though having their buddies hide them could cause interesting repercussions as well.

News that Ahlverez left his wounded to be cared for by the ICA will also help in that regard, but I suspect the intendants and their agents are far too integrated into the AoG for this to work as well as you may hope.

L


Charybdis wrote:
Alistair wrote:Kaitswyrth has been reinforced by several thousand Desnairians fleeing the distruction of there army.

I suspect that those "reinforcements" will have a shockingly negative effect on the A.O.G

Why?

1.Kaitswyrth army has already been beaten soundly already
2. They are already reeling from the news of the "great Canal raid"
3. hearing about the destruction of the entire Desnair army will only reinforce the sense of despair futility that they already feel.

I suspect if the good guys had enough troops one good hard push would destroy the entire army before they are reinforced by Harchongs troops.

Bottom line desnairs fleeing troops well could be an asset to Charis as they are fleeing with tales of what happened to there army!

I cannot specifically recall but I believe that it was one of the Mongol Khan's war policy to set free 1 in 10 of the captured, AFTER the other 9 were guesomely killed, in order to spread terror to their enemies. It does have an effect BUT it is one of the things that defines barbarians as just that, people outside civil society.

The opposite tact is to treat prisoners well. That concept is that if they know there is no mercy, then the fight is ALWAYS to the death and that also means more of your troops are at risk. If there is mercy, then the opposite applies. I refer to this as progress and it is obvious that it is what RFC is encouraging with the exception of practicing Inquisitors. They are a self-selecting group and less power to them!
Any snippet or post from RFC is good if not great!
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Re: Spoiler Kaitswyrth "reinforcements"
Post by lyonheart   » Mon Mar 10, 2014 5:15 am

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Hi PeterZ,

Kaitswyrth certainly is toast!

But we have no textev for the Morgans being sent anywhere but to BGV, and its March already, and Symkyn is around 900 miles south of BGV, so I don't think he needs that much winter equipment any more.

It may have taken 40-50 days to get there from SC, so the late October reinforcements may have spent perhaps just 3-4 five-days in winter quarters in the Aivystyn forest (built by Hobsyn's command), so they are probably eager to do something a bit more energetic.

Indeed given the better weather and the smaller campaign distances involved, Symkyn might beat BGV in destroying a AoG army. 8-)

Among Symkyn's advantages are the fact that Kaitswyrth lost at least 61% of his rifles (almost 19,000), and we have no textev that they were replaced, especially given the higher priority of arming the IHA.

If K's AoG had had the 40 infantry divisions I assumed, his rifle total would have been 30,720; he might have around 12,000 at most left, which explains why he didn't try to press Hobsyn, even if he'd known exactly when DE left, since the rifle ratio is almost the same as when it was against DE's whole reinforced 1st brigade (~3.08 to 3.4) without the mortar and artillery advantages, before considering the huge morale changes.

If Kaitswyrth had only 36 infantry divisions, he might have only ~9,000 rifles left, meaning among other things Hobsyn might have had an even better rifle ratio than DE had.

Kaitswyrth may have had anywhere from 54 to 80 cavalry regiments, and possibly have lost up to 30% of that as well from the 5,000+ cavalry saddles the AoG no longer needed.

While the local TL's suffered losses, the AoG probably suffered a higher loss rate than its 2-1 ratio, perhaps up to 24-25,000 of the 29,000 casualties cited including artillery, so Symkyn might actually outnumber the AoG!

Which is certainly a first in this war. ;)

NTM Symkyn probably has over 55,000 riflemen, so he has anywhere from a 4 to a 6-1 ratio or even better rifle odds, over 80% being Mahndrayns.

What would Kaitswyrth do if he found all this to be true?

What would his army do?

While the reports to Zion claimed Kaitswyrth had made a stand just outside the forest, having your HQ at least 250 miles further back in Aivystyn strongly argues against that, so were they exaggerated?

If the false reports were approved by K's intendant, Clyntahn will not be pleased when he found out.

Since that wasn't recorded in LaMA, perhaps the Go4 let it slide, arguing executing the army's intendant might be bad for morale, especially if he's the main force holding things together if Kaitswyrth has collapsed.

But Clyntahn might still make an example of Hennet, since the CoGA (NTM the Go4) can't be held responsible for the loss of the AoS, regardless of the political repercussions in the Desnarian empire. 8-)

Besides the various arguments made above for why the Desnari cavalry are more of a liability than an advantage for the AoG, the extra 8,000 horses are consuming another 120 tons of fodder every day besides the 12 tons of food for the men, which might make the ranks more hostile if food is running short at the end of winter and the Charayn canal is still frozen.

Any fortified line so far forward could have been cut off from supplies by the scout snipers back in August, since we had no news of a AoG pullback, I believe the AoG was far enough away from the forest that Hobsyn's initial conservative patrols didn't find any AoG forces within 40-100 miles of the forest.

There are apparently 3 sets of locks somewhere between Aivystyn and the forest, I suspect Kaitswyrth fortifying the first nearest the forest to prevent the ironclads from advancing further up the river.

But Symkyn with 2 mounted brigades could easily flank any AoG position fixed on the river, NTM trap any such forces, possibly before they knew he had mounted brigades.

I've wondered about the scout snipers sneaking up to Aivystyn and blockading it by preventing any barges reaching it, ah the possibilities.

Think of the possibilities... ;)

L


PeterZ wrote:I suspect that once Symkyn has been reinforced with mounted brigades on their heavy coated Morgans and their ice lizards to haul supplies, Kaitswyrth is toast. That's 75,000 troops armed with breechloading rifles, rifled artillery, mortars and effective winter gear and logistics. I don't see Kaitswyrth surviving the first assault, let alone any sort of retreat.

I suspect that by attacking in winter, Symkyn avoids the risk of having the locks blown. The canals are frozen solid and blowing the locks won't drain the canals as happened in the Guarnak.

Yeah, those "reinforcements" will surely drive morale even lower yet. I doubt it would have mattered much with or without the Desnarii.
Last edited by lyonheart on Wed Mar 12, 2014 7:29 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Any snippet or post from RFC is good if not great!
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Re: Spoiler Kaitswyrth "reinforcements"
Post by pokermind   » Mon Mar 10, 2014 9:20 am

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lyonheart wrote:
[SNIP]

Besides the various arguments made above for why the Desnari cavalry are more of a liability than an advantage for the AoG, the extra 8,000 horses are consuming another 120 tons of fodder every day besides the 12 tons of food for the men, which might make the ranks more hostile if food is running short at the end of winter and the Charayn canal is still frozen.

[SNIP]


In extremities during the ACW horses became rations for the army not that the Desnari cavalry will like the idea ;)

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Re: Spoiler Kaitswyrth "reinforcements"
Post by PeterZ   » Mon Mar 10, 2014 9:27 am

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lyonheart wrote:Hi PeterZ,

Kaitswyrth certainly is toast!

snip

Think of the possibilities... ;)

L



I believe you are savoring all those elegant ways to crush Kaitswyrth, when that force is punch drunk with a glass jaw waiting a simple right cross.

The real issue is whether Symkyn can get far enough north to help Green Valley secure Mahrtynberg and St. Vyrdyn before the MHoGatA arrive. My read is that Symkyn can make better time in Winter using those morgan adaptaions and ice lizards than in Spring. Odds are the locks at some point will be blown in the Spring. Also, the roads will be muddy and make for real slow going. If Symkyn wants to preserve the canals, he must go as far as possible before the Spring thaw.

So there are many possibilities that all begin with a quick knockout of Kaitswyrth.
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