Upcoming Ops (SPOILER)

I'll try to come up with some numbers regarding the coaling logistics needed to operate Charisian steamships in the Gulf of Dohlar, assumming they sail all the way from Chisholm, like Sharpfield's fleet did in LAMA.

I'm estimating the distance between Cheyrath and Claw Island to be around 9,000 miles. In AMF Thirsk estimated the distance between Claw Island and Gorath Bay as 4,000 miles. So, 13,000 miles in total.

The steamship technical data we have from RFC is,

King Haarald battlehips
Range 12,000nm at 12.5 knots (10.9 Old Earth knots)
Bunker at max displacement: 2,929 tons

River-class coastal ironclads
Range 3,500 nm at 5.7 knots (5 Old Earth knots)
Bunker at max displacement: 115 tons


Assumming colliers can load around 350 tons of coal, one collier would allow a River-class ironclads to sail 10,500 miles. A King Haarald battleship would need almost 9 colliers to sail 12,000 miles.

If 3 King Haaralds were to sail to the Gulf of Dohlar in summer 897, they could easily reach Claw Island from Chisholm without coaling in between. Once there they would need at the very least the coal transported by the equivalent of 27 colliers to continue and engage the Dohlaran fleet somewhere well inside the Gulf in the Dohlar Bank or Dragon Island area.

A River class ironclad would need the support of 1 collier to reach Claw Island and that of 0,5 colliers to reach Gorath Bay from there. Assumming they survive the storms, of course.

So the real logistical problem is how to support a battleship attack on Dohlar, including a final attack on Gorath Bay. It is not just the number of colliers needed, it would also probably involve setting up a second coaling station well inside the Gulf of Dohlar. The first Charisian expedition into the Gulf of Dohlar conquered initially not only Claw Island but also Trove Island in the Dohlar Bank.

In comparison, the logistics need to support River-class ironclads are simple.

Freighter:

Steel Hull
Steel masts
Steel silk sails.
Steam donkey engines near deck to handled schooner type rig...tiny crew.
Propeller is retracted for no drag.

The 5-masters of the last century could pull iirc 15 knots under good wind conditions. At least one had a collision because the oncoming ship severely misestimated how fast they might be moving.

MWadwell wrote:

dwileye13 wrote:(SNIP)

Coaling/Fueling in the Gulf of Dohlar is problematic unless the Salthar Canal can be occupied.

(SNIP)

On this, with the immenent launch of the KHVII, has anyone heard anything about freighters?

I mean, rather then relying on a galleon that can only carry a thousand (or so) tons of cargo, what about a more modern freighter to go along with the KHVII's?

Even a simple coal powered "Liberty" freighter of WW2 would be a massive increase in the amount of available shipping.....

phillies wrote:Freighter:

Steel Hull
Steel masts
Steel silk sails.
Steam donkey engines near deck to handled schooner type rig...tiny crew.
Propeller is retracted for no drag.

The 5-masters of the last century could pull iirc 15 knots under good wind conditions. At least one had a collision because the oncoming ship severely misestimated how fast they might be moving.

Those steel hulled sailing cargo ships still ply their trade in the South Sunda Sea. Matter of fact the boogie men run those ships. Seriously, the Bugis of Sulawesi still use sailing ships to carry lumber and other inexpensive but bulky cargo. They earned a reputation from the Dutch as deadly pirates. That reputation lingers to day as boogie men.

Back to the original topic. I don't recall anything in text about steel sailing ship construction. I do agree that after building the KH VIIs Charis could easily build steel hulls and masts for sailing ships. The bulkheads, decks and cargo holds could be wood. Such ships would be much more seaworthy and survive storms better.

jmseeley wrote:
True, but it's also a huge increase in the coal requirement. Bulk cargo transportation by sail was used well into the 20th century. That said, a steam collier or two that could accompany the fleet would be a useful addition.

What ships get built (or not built) are probably driven by military requirements and the limited construction capacity that exists.

jms

I am really looking forward to the cruisers and destroyers. I doubt hey will show up until the next story arc. Because the steel hulled ships haven't been visibly planned or even been commented on suggests that the Salthar Canal is and has been a target for the ICN. Yes, cargo ships are important, but not critical within the time frames considered because that canal was something the ICN WILL control.

Taking the Salthar Canal

This is not fanfic. It is pure speculation. I make no claims about the subject of this post.

I mentioned in another thread that ICA mounted brigades could take the central portions of the Salthar Canal by going north from the Gulf of Jahras. The more I thought about this the more I realized those troops needed at least 2 and likely 3 inner circle members to lead them to the target locks unseen.

Let's see now.....Nimue, Merlin and Hektor would do the trick.

Nimue would take a long weekend from Corisande. Hektor of course would accompany his wife's troops to the war zone. Once in theater he could take a schooner with one of the seijin for his mission. The siejin's name might be Ghwynyvyr or perhaps Nike (or the doric version Nika). They join Merlin and take the troops in three columns around any prying eyes and straight to the semaphore towers. After those key towers are down they take control of the locks.

The canal heads are taken by ICN marine units on either side of the canal. If Hektor, Merlin and Nimue play it right, they can send back messages that the inner locks have been attacked but that the defenders have succeeded in destroying the locks. Since the canal has been made useless, the defenders at the canal heads will be encouraged to surrender.

I think this has a real possibility of happening.

kbus888 wrote:=2014/02/22=

Hi Guys

I think Nynian/Aivah will be a MAJOR player in Zion's downfall.

??Any ideas out there on if, how, and when that will happen ??

R
.

I agree. A purely military solution is just not possible. Somehow the Vicarate has to be forced to discredit itself. Badly enough to cause Harchong to turn against the COGA. I have no idea as to how this would be accomplished. I suspect that Aviah will cause the foundations to quiver with Merlin's considerable help. She's just shown she can out sneaky Merlin.

Slightly different view.

In reading the late parts of the book, I noted the fixation on Branselyk, its effect elsewhere, and was reminded of one of the battles of Marlborough, with the French fixating on a flank town until their central line was too thin. Perhaps the parallel is somewhat stretched.

At some point, mobilizing Corisande ought to become more practicable.

While u have done an excellent job of analyzing the military situation and there have been interesting technical discussions of weapons development in this topic, u seem to have forgotten the primary mission. The primary mission is neither to achieve peace and religious tolerance on safehold nor a crushing, complete and very bloody military victory. The primary mission is to remove the block on technological advancement put on Safehold by the "ArcAngels" , speed tech development and innovation to move Safehold and all its citizens into the space age. To expand the human population and colonize human habitable planets. To build a space navy capable of defeating the gbaba, rebuild a new Human empire and secure a lasting place for humanity in the Galaxy.

To achieve these ultimate goals of course, the primary tech block, the COGA, must be removed or radically transformed. To that end, I am surprised that Michael Staynair has not yet introduced a Charisian bible, basically the current bible with the books of Schueler and Jwo Jeng removed. This would be a devastating bit of psy-ops. Once safehold denies the infallibility of the ArcAngels, all kinds of things can be questioned, such as the authority of the church in Zion, after all if ArcAngels can make mistakes.... Also the divine right of such secular organizations as the Harchong nobility.

A French Revolution style uprising in Harchong, I.e. off with the aristocrats heads is probably the best solution for the problem of the vast Harchognese army. The Harchong aristos are quite right to fear a large army of peasants with military training and equipped with modern weapons.

The innovators of military tech and improved manufacturing methods for Zion are actually future allies for Merlin and his long term plans though a problem now.

Some way of engineering a revolt in Harchong and a successful amphibious op to seize the Temple in Zion would seem to me to be the quickest and best way to end the current conflict and unite Safehold. I am assuming that the key of Schuler gives access to and control over the computer and tech beneath the Temple, or that the controls for the orbital bombardment system and the sleeping picas or cryogenically preserved bodies of the ArcAngels can be destroyed before they can be activated. Control would be best as it would be fun to awaken the ArcAngels or their picas, under controlled conditions , and interrogate them. After showing them the history of Safehold that resulted from their decisions, I would begin with the question, just WTF did u think u were doing?

An interesting clue. Or not.

I do not recall the text ever mentioning the last name of the King of Delferak.

However, it is in the appendices.

It is Rayno.

Is Clyntahn's #2 man a relative? I do not recall textev.

phillies wrote:An interesting clue. Or not.

I do not recall the text ever mentioning the last name of the King of Delferak.

However, it is in the appendices.

It is Rayno.

Is Clyntahn's #2 man a relative? I do not recall textev.

Yes, he is a relative. The King had bitterly lamented the singular lack of aid coming from his cousin(?). I don't believe they were siblings.