BB(P/C) for rear area security

Grashtel wrote:Replicating the Streak Drive is virtually certain as they have one of the key researchers for it and it has been described as more a novel combination of existing developments than something wholly new that the Alignment has came up with.

It´s never certain until it´s done, yes it is highly likely, but all it takes is that there is one part which he knows perfectly WHAT it does, but either not HOW it does it or no how it is MADE, and it can be enough.

Remember, things like this has happened in realworld history. Heck, even stranger things have happened for real.

R&D isn´t linear.

Grashtel wrote:The Spider Drive is going to be much harder but Simoes is likely to have enough to at least get them pointed in the right direction(even if its only something like "it uses really powerful and focused tractor beams to grab onto the alpha wall and pull the ship along" that at least gives them somewhere to start from)

Probably, but worst case here? It puts them on the WRONG track...

drothgery wrote:Well, most of the classical screen and minor system defense duties are being taken over by LACs, so they don't need to do that anymore.

When there is a base or CLAC around, of course a group of LACs are going to be better.

As i said somewhere, it´s when you need something somewhere you do NOT have a base, and sending a CLAC is a hilarious waste of resources.

And in a war, those kind of missions are extremely common. Offensive scouting, there´s never enough light units for it, and even just plain old pirate hunting outside of your own systems is no small thing, even if the annexation of Silesia alleviates this to some degree.

Tenshinai wrote:

drothgery wrote:Well, most of the classical screen and minor system defense duties are being taken over by LACs, so they don't need to do that anymore.

When there is a base or CLAC around, of course a group of LACs are going to be better.

As i said somewhere, it´s when you need something somewhere you do NOT have a base, and sending a CLAC is a hilarious waste of resources.

Eh, anywhere you need more than half a carrier's wing, a CLAC is not a hilarious waste of resources. If you need less, you can probably scrounge together fixed basing space on existing stations with minimal work or (assuming your industrial plant hasn't been destroyed) ship in a prefab base with the LACs.

Well, I seem to recall that Grayson designed its own compensator (or am I thinking of some other device?). Other people had one so they knew it was possible but not how to do it. So I see nothing impossible in the idea that Manticore's and Haven's engineers could devise a Streak Drive with just the knowledge that some else had already done it.

Cheers

John

Tenshinai wrote:

Grashtel wrote:Replicating the Streak Drive is virtually certain as they have one of the key researchers for it and it has been described as more a novel combination of existing developments than something wholly new that the Alignment has came up with.

It´s never certain until it´s done, yes it is highly likely, but all it takes is that there is one part which he knows perfectly WHAT it does, but either not HOW it does it or no how it is MADE, and it can be enough.

Remember, things like this has happened in realworld history. Heck, even stranger things have happened for real.

R&D isn´t linear.

Grashtel wrote:The Spider Drive is going to be much harder but Simoes is likely to have enough to at least get them pointed in the right direction(even if its only something like "it uses really powerful and focused tractor beams to grab onto the alpha wall and pull the ship along" that at least gives them somewhere to start from)

Probably, but worst case here? It puts them on the WRONG track...

John Prigent wrote:Well, I seem to recall that Grayson designed its own compensator (or am I thinking of some other device?). Other people had one so they knew it was possible but not how to do it. So I see nothing impossible in the idea that Manticore's and Haven's engineers could devise a Streak Drive with just the knowledge that some else had already done it.

Cheers

John

Yes, but how log did it take Grayson to develop their compensator and how many resources did it take? And in the end, they developed something else entirely than what they planned to build (in this case, better).

Knowing someone else did it just proves it isn't a total resource and R&D sink, not that it will be easy to accomplish or that you will actually find it and not a similiar solution.

Sometimes jumps in science are so counter intuitive to what is commonly known, that no one believes it even when they see it. Einstein's 1905 Theories of Relativity were hotly scorned when they came out and most Physicists (especially those who many people would say were smarter than Einstein) fiercly rejected his findings, so much so that his 1921 Nobel Prize for the Photoelectric Work Effect has specific verbiage in it stating that the Nobel was NOT for any of his work done in the field of Relativity (the only Nobel with exclusion language in it).

In his case, it was almost 30 years before someone tried to apply the "known" information to real world outcomes. Part of this was the buildup of other science and technologies around it, but other was a lack of mainstream recognition of it's potential.

drothgery wrote:Eh, anywhere you need more than half a carrier's wing, a CLAC is not a hilarious waste of resources. If you need less, you can probably scrounge together fixed basing space on existing stations with minimal work or (assuming your industrial plant hasn't been destroyed) ship in a prefab base with the LACs.

And where you only need A ship, ANY ship? Where anything beyond a handful of ships would be wasting resources.

And anywhere that isn´t YOUR system? So you CANT build any kind of base there.

If your only option at that point is to send a carrier, you´re going to run out of carriers REAL quick.

John Prigent wrote:Well, I seem to recall that Grayson designed its own compensator (or am I thinking of some other device?). Other people had one so they knew it was possible but not how to do it. So I see nothing impossible in the idea that Manticore's and Haven's engineers could devise a Streak Drive with just the knowledge that some else had already done it.

Cheers

John

I said it was highly likely that they would succeed didn´t i?

But as Theemile and i said, there´s never a guarantee and the cost and time(and end result) could become just about anything.

Tenshinai wrote:

drothgery wrote:Eh, anywhere you need more than half a carrier's wing, a CLAC is not a hilarious waste of resources. If you need less, you can probably scrounge together fixed basing space on existing stations with minimal work or (assuming your industrial plant hasn't been destroyed) ship in a prefab base with the LACs.

And where you only need A ship, ANY ship? Where anything beyond a handful of ships would be wasting resources.

And anywhere that isn´t YOUR system? So you CANT build any kind of base there.

If your only option at that point is to send a carrier, you´re going to run out of carriers REAL quick.

I guess I just think the set of places where

1) you want a presence in a system
AND
2) a Sag-C-sized ship is overkill (or you need multiple ships and multiple Sag-C-sized ships are overkill)
AND
3) there's nowhere to operate a few LACs from / it's impractical to ship said LACs there / it's impractical to station a carrier there

is pretty small.

drothgery wrote:I guess I just think the set of places where

1) you want a presence in a system
AND
2) a Sag-C-sized ship is overkill (or you need multiple ships and multiple Sag-C-sized ships are overkill)
AND
3) there's nowhere to operate a few LACs from / it's impractical to ship said LACs there / it's impractical to station a carrier there

is pretty small.

No one wants to replace all DD's with Sag-C's now, it is only that in the future it might become impossible to build an effective combatant lighter than a Sag-C. That future threat environment includes DDM-armed opponents, and at that point that hypothetical new class is no longer overkill, but the very minimum you need for a hyper-capable warship.
You could still build lighter ships, but then you could still build frigates, but no one is doing that, because it is a waste of resources.

Whitecold wrote:
No one wants to replace all DD's with Sag-C's now, it is only that in the future it might become impossible to build an effective combatant lighter than a Sag-C. That future threat environment includes DDM-armed opponents, and at that point that hypothetical new class is no longer overkill, but the very minimum you need for a hyper-capable warship.
You could still build lighter ships, but then you could still build frigates, but no one is doing that, because it is a waste of resources.

The point is that there´s a lot of missions that needs to be done that does not require a warship capable of standing up to "itself".
Missions where a handful or even a single LAC would be plenty enough, but requires a hyper capable unit.

Frigates are obsolete because if you´re already building a ship that big, you might as well make it big enough to be a DD instead.

But going from 100-150kt DDs as the smallest unit to a 450-600kt range as the smallest unit, that´s going to hurt both construction times and costs noticeably.

And a Roland gets away with a crew of just 62, while a Saganami-C uses almost 6 times that. Even without the marines, it´s still over 3 times the crew. And what is it that Manticore is currently in need of? Crew.


*****

I guess I just think the set of places where

1) you want a presence in a system
AND
2) a Sag-C-sized ship is overkill (or you need multiple ships and multiple Sag-C-sized ships are overkill)
AND
3) there's nowhere to operate a few LACs from / it's impractical to ship said LACs there / it's impractical to station a carrier there

is pretty small.

Experience both from the books and from reality says the opposite.

And now with a HORDE of potentially hostile systems, the need becomes even greater, as it will become drastically harder to keep enough scouts out around enemy and neutral systems to avoid any "interesting" surprises.

Two Roland are cheaper than a single Saganami-C in just about anything.
Wether they cannot stand up to "real combat units" or not is actually irrelevant, as noone expected an old style DD to stand up to heavy fleet units anyway.

Strategic presence, strategic scouting and any kind of patrolling that doesn´t expect the ships to engage a more powerful hostile (which noone would expect anyway); Manticore is an empire now, they have LOTS of space that needs presence more than it needs lots of bigassed superduper fighting capable cruisers.