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Future weapons based on LAMA small SPOILER.

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Re: Future weapons based on LAMA small SPOILER.
Post by Henry Brown   » Tue Mar 04, 2014 2:49 am

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alj_sf wrote:Are you sure ? I remember them still on marsilly carriages. That is a very big difference as it need to be repositioned after each firing, unlike a 75 aero/hydraulic brake.

There was discussions of guns with hydro brakes but in pit fixed versions (both with hydro or weights balances brakes) that you cannot fit on any carriage.


I believe you are thinking of the Rottweiler class's guns. Those ARE still on carriages. However, the River class ironclads were designed for breechloading 6" guns with a hydro-pneumatic recoil system.

However the guns were not ready in time, so they sent the first 4 ships off for the canal raid with muzzle-loading 30 pounders. Once they got enough of the new guns made they sent a shipment of them to Siddarmark in LAMA to rearm the ironclads.
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Re: Future weapons based on LAMA small SPOILER.
Post by alj_sf   » Tue Mar 04, 2014 7:28 am

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Henry Brown wrote:
alj_sf wrote:Are you sure ? I remember them still on marsilly carriages. That is a very big difference as it need to be repositioned after each firing, unlike a 75 aero/hydraulic brake.

There was discussions of guns with hydro brakes but in pit fixed versions (both with hydro or weights balances brakes) that you cannot fit on any carriage.


I believe you are thinking of the Rottweiler class's guns. Those ARE still on carriages. However, the River class ironclads were designed for breechloading 6" guns with a hydro-pneumatic recoil system.

However the guns were not ready in time, so they sent the first 4 ships off for the canal raid with muzzle-loading 30 pounders. Once they got enough of the new guns made they sent a shipment of them to Siddarmark in LAMA to rearm the ironclads.


But I understood the latter are designed on recoil pits, and so not compatible with carriages.
Such an aero-brake dont need the very high tolerances of manufacturing needed for a 75 style brake.
I need to check.
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Re: Future weapons based on LAMA small SPOILER.
Post by EdThomas   » Tue Mar 04, 2014 5:21 pm

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Don't get too excited about long range guns. Longer range is only effective if you can see where your rounds are landing AND get that information back to the guns. . Current Artillery Support Partys, ASPs, use heliograph, signal flags, rockets and runners. The ASP is very effective with mortars and close-in defensive fires but deeper offensive fire is gonna have to wait for electricity. Unless of course you have a mountain handy where you can park some ASPs. Longer range guns do allow you to bring more distant guns on defensive targets if you've had the time for your atillerists to coordinate this type of fire.

Recoil control is probably the area where you would get the most bang for your buck by reducing the time it takes to get the gun back on target.

Henry Brown wrote:Another logical future weapon would be improved field artillery. We know from LAMA that Charis has now put breechloading 6 inch guns into production for the river ironclads. Furthermore, they have worked out the kinks on a shipboard hydro-pneumatic recoil system. They have not yet gotten smokeless powder into production, but they are heading rapidly in that direction.

It seems to me the next step would be putting these advances into land based field guns. Once Charis figures out how to engineer these developments into something small enough to fit into a land-based artillery carriage, they have everything they need to build something along the lines of the WW1 era French 75. Except, since Charis already has a 4 inch rifled muzzleloading cannon, they might want to stick with that caliber. Which would give them a bigger, heavier shell and most likely longer range than the historical French 75.
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Re: Future weapons based on LAMA small SPOILER.
Post by Thucydides   » Wed Mar 05, 2014 1:35 am

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Forward observers should become a very important part of the Imperial Army as it evolves, and various forms of non electrical signalling can certainly be done to deliver effective long range fire.

Even without radio and telephone signalling, pre planed artillery fire programs and detailed Infantry/Artillery training and coordination can still make things work. This is, after all, how the Canadian Corps under General Sir Julian Byng and later General Sir Arthur Currie became such a fearsome fighting force in the Great War. (radio was primitive and unreliable, and telephone wires tended to be cut by enemy counter barrages).

Since we are still actually working at Franco Prussian war levels of technology, massive fire plans, creeping barrages and Infantry advancing at the "Vimy Shuffle" behind the wall of shellfire are still a way in the future.

One other thing that most people (yes, even me) tend to overlook is the logistics system. Currie was hamstrung in the last "100 Days" campaign more by the inability of the logistics train to keep up with the rapidly advancing Canadian Corps than by the fighting powers of the defending German armies. Imperial troops stranded without sufficient food or ammunition supplies will be hard pressed to exploit their successes, or shore up failures.

As a parting point, while it is fairly easy to conceptualize things, ironing out the details and creating a working product takes time and experience. The French developed the idea of an automatic weapon at squad level in 1903, but did not get around to developing a "practical" weapon to deliver this firepower until the introduction of the dreadful "Fusil Mitrailleur Modele 1915 CSRG". The British eventually developed and refined the Lewis Gun as a platoon level weapon, and the BAR made its appearance at the very end of the Great War. Even then, totally satisfactory squad level automatic weapons continued to elude most military establishments even into the Second World War, and it is noteworthy that truly effective squad automatic weapons waited until the development and large scale adoption of 5.56 X 45 ammunition (The most popular being the FN Minimi, introduced in 1974. In Canadian service it is known as the C-9; in US service it has been called the "SAW" (Squad Automatic Weapon), or M-249).

Other factors that led to a 71 year gap between the idea of an automatic weapon at the squad level and the introduction of the Minimi include advances in metallurgy, low cost mass production of gun bodies and parts (including using metal stampings and spot welding), manufacturing and mass production to close tolerances and the adoption of ideas that were tested and "passed muster" over the previous 70 years (such as firing from an open bolt and the "two stage" feed pawl system to feed the belt into the gun). While it is true that in this story OWL and Merlin could probably introduce a Gauss gun using micro railgun barrels and miniature homopolar generator to launch 4mm hypervelocity rounds in 3000 rpm bursts (or a plasma rifle in the 40 watt range), the idea is people are supposed to learn how to figure things out for themselves. A long learning curve is included in the deal.
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Re: Future weapons based on LAMA small SPOILER.
Post by mistwalker   » Wed Mar 05, 2014 2:33 pm

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Thucydides wrote:Forward observers should become a very important part of the Imperial Army as it evolves, and various forms of non electrical signalling can certainly be done to deliver effective long range fire.

Even without radio and telephone signalling, pre planed artillery fire programs and detailed Infantry/Artillery training and coordination can still make things work. This is, after all, how the Canadian Corps under General Sir Julian Byng and later General Sir Arthur Currie became such a fearsome fighting force in the Great War. (radio was primitive and unreliable, and telephone wires tended to be cut by enemy counter barrages).



:lol: you know you are using a lots of hyperbole in your argument, are you aware that to maintain communications during the battle of Vimy Ridge, particularly with the artillery, field units laid over 1,400 kilometres (870 mi) of telegraph and field telephone cabling, normally at a depth of 2.1 metres (7 ft and that there were one gun every 18 meters?. Without electricity and fast means of communication you will not see a rolling barrage anytime soon. Interesting fact that attackers expected 10% casualties from their own artillery fire. And while pre planning artillery programs sound good they are not as effective as you may think without observation and corrections.



Since we are still actually working at Franco Prussian war levels of technology, massive fire plans, creeping barrages and Infantry advancing at the "Vimy Shuffle" behind the wall of shellfire are still a way in the future.


You are absolutely right about that







As a parting point, while it is fairly easy to conceptualize things, ironing out the details and creating a working product takes time and experience. The French developed the idea of an automatic weapon at squad level in 1903, but did not get around to developing a "practical" weapon to deliver this firepower until the introduction of the dreadful "Fusil Mitrailleur Modele 1915 CSRG".


Why would you want to keep repeating earlier mistakes if with gentle guiding hand of OWL you could skip them?



The British eventually developed and refined the Lewis Gun as a platoon level weapon, and the BAR made its appearance at the very end of the Great War.


Gas operated weapons which concept is still unknown on Safehold, and BAR is really complicated design to produce.
While I proposed a weapon which is recoil operated.


[]In Canadian service it is known as the C-9; in US service it has been called the "SAW" (Squad Automatic Weapon), or M-249).


Canadian infantry squad or section is only 8 people while ICA is 12 plus corporal ( enough bodies to have a machine gun designed to use the same ammo as rifle ) I don't know if you are aware C9 is not only belt fed but can use a rifle magazine too.


Other factors that led to a 71 year gap between the idea of an automatic weapon at the squad level and the introduction of the Minimi include advances in metallurgy, low cost mass production of gun bodies and parts (including using metal stampings and spot welding), manufacturing and mass production to close tolerances and the adoption of ideas that were tested and "passed muster" over the previous 70 years (such as firing from an open bolt and the "two stage" feed pawl system to feed the belt into the gun).


MG 42 was being made out of stamped metal required considerably less tooling and was much simpler to build, the only issue I see is if they can produce barrel strong enough to withstand the prolonged firing.



While it is true that in this story OWL and Merlin could probably introduce a Gauss gun using micro railgun barrels and miniature homopolar generator to launch 4mm hypervelocity rounds in 3000 rpm bursts (or a plasma rifle in the 40 watt range), the idea is people are supposed to learn how to figure things out for themselves. A long learning curve is included in the deal.


But there is already process in that direction , they have a production line, stamp and dies machines etc. and IIRC company which designed MG 42 did not have prior experience in weapon manufacture but in pressed and stumped steel parts and mass production. So with enough "gentle" probing it could be done with technology and systems which are already in use. If you going to "borrow" from existing technology may as well borrow the best you can get :)
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Re: Future weapons based on LAMA small SPOILER.
Post by Gunny   » Wed Mar 05, 2014 2:48 pm

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Thucydides wrote:While it is true that in this story OWL and Merlin could probably introduce a Gauss gun using micro railgun barrels and miniature homopolar generator to launch 4mm hypervelocity rounds in 3000 rpm bursts (or a plasma rifle in the 40 watt range), the idea is people are supposed to learn how to figure things out for themselves. A long learning curve is included in the deal.


Especially since they believe the the use of electricity will bring down KE projectiles.

Other than that, a lot of good points in your response. You can only drag the world so fast before the screaming and yelling gets to you.
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Re: Future weapons based on LAMA small SPOILER.
Post by Thucydides   » Thu Mar 06, 2014 11:18 pm

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Even with the burial of telephone cables, a large portion were still cut by enemy artillery. Since I am not near my reference library at the moment, I don't remember the percentages off hand. OTOH, at Vimy ridge, much of the communications system was even farther below ground, in a system of tunnels burrowed in the chalk under the battlefield that was impervious to even the most powerful artillery bombardments. The problem came when the signallers emerged from the ends of the tunnels trailing their spools of wire after H Hr...

I am actually well aware of the C-9 and other Canadian Infantry weapons, having served in Afghanistan. For what it is worth, very few of us think highly of the magazine feed feature of the C-9, although I suspect much of this is due to the age of the weapons, which makes getting a solid fit of a loaded magazine a bit of a problem sometimes. Of course, firing a 30 round magazine from a fully automatic weapon has a few issues of its own...

While I am positive in story terms OWN and Merlin could drop enough hints for the ICA to create and adopt almost any weapons system ever devised between the time of Alexander the Great to the 25th century, the issue for Merlin is to get people to think for themselves. While it would be a disaster for the ICA to actually create and adopt an analogue of the "Fusil Mitrailleur Modele 1915 CSRG", they would certainly learn a lot of what "not to do" for the next generation of weapons. In another thread, RFC himself has noted the current ICA rifle is not an optimum design, and the CoGA seems to have come up with a better design (at least one which is more easily built using CoGA technology). If the Empire were to adopt the CoGA rifle as their design, the superior production facilities of the Empire would allow the Imperial forces and their allies to be rapidly re equipped, far faster than the CoGA could even make their initial issue.

This argument has been made before in multiple threads, and is the source of my usual discontent with the "Bring on the Industrial Revolution!" story trope. Sure, you may know how to make modern devices, but if you were sent back to the Roman Empire or 15th century Venice, you would discover they don't even have the tools to make the tools, or possibly even the basic concepts to understand what you are trying to describe and build. Something like this explains the 71 year gap between the idea of having an automatic weapon at the squad level in 1903, and the introduction of the Minimi in 1974.

This isn't even the only case; Leonardo da Vinci designed a recognizable tank in 1487 (and a modern replica built with very few modifications actually worked on firm, level ground), but the real thing only arrived in 1916. Similarly flying machines were designed centuries before the Wright brothers made their first flight in 1903.
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Re: Future weapons based on LAMA small SPOILER.
Post by EdThomas   » Fri Mar 07, 2014 2:50 pm

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IMHO artillery's greatest value will be defensive until we get radio. I'd be very surprised if FOs could maintain visual contact in a situation with a lot of movement. Visual signalling methods will expose the signallers to enemy fire which should limit their placement to protected locations. Defense, or any static position, will give the artiierists time to setup communication lines.

Night signalling from defensive positions may be possible if chemical lights are available. I'm thinking of the stage lights used in theaters. The term "limelight" comes from this.

I imagine pre-planned rolling barrages will have to wait until we have better recoil systems which allow guns to get back on target quickly. This kind of fire may be limited to mortars for the time being.

Thucydides wrote:Forward observers should become a very important part of the Imperial Army as it evolves, and various forms of non electrical signalling can certainly be done to deliver effective long range fire.

Even without radio and telephone signalling, pre planed artillery fire programs and detailed Infantry/Artillery training and coordination can still make things work. This is, after all, how the Canadian Corps under General Sir Julian Byng and later General Sir Arthur Currie became such a fearsome fighting force in the Great War. (radio was primitive and unreliable, and telephone wires tended to be cut by enemy counter barrages).


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Re: Future weapons based on LAMA small SPOILER.
Post by n7axw   » Fri Mar 07, 2014 8:27 pm

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You guys with your acronymns and abreviations! Would someone please inform me what IIRC means. It's driving me nuts!

Don
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Re: Future weapons based on LAMA small SPOILER.
Post by ksandgren   » Fri Mar 07, 2014 8:38 pm

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n7axw wrote:You guys with your acronymns and abreviations! Would someone please inform me what IIRC means. It's driving me nuts!

Don


If I recall correctly
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