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Upcoming Ops (SPOILER)

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Re: Upcoming Ops (SPOILER)
Post by PeterZ   » Wed Mar 05, 2014 12:06 pm

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jmseeley wrote:
I think that Dohlar is going to do everything it can to make Evrytyn into another Thesmar. If they lose that the Alliance has a clear shot to invade Dohlar itself. Or they could byass Dohlar and move on Dairnyth instead and shut down the AoGs southern logistics network.

Once the ICN starts serious raiding in the Gulf, Thirsk will face irresistible pressure to move in force, even if he knows he's outmatched. The galleon fleet plus Rottweilers are enough to interdict most of the shipping in the outer Gulf and repel any attack Thirsk can mount. My guess is that they won't go any further until the KH VIIs, the first generation of HE shells and a large Marine force arrive. Then they'll be seeking Thirsk out, as well as doing to every major port on the Gulf what they did to Ferayd.

I think that the ICN still has to be cautious. The RDN has explosive shells and only a few of the ICN ships are armored. No doubt they can win any battle, but the cost could be a lot more that they're willing to pay. I think Thirsk's best response once he encounters the KH VIIs in battle will be to scatter his fleet. The cruisers can easily catch and kill any of his ships, but they can only run down a fraction of them at any given time.

OTOH, if Silkiah flips and the Salthar Canal becomes available then the KH VIIs could be joined by a squadron or two of River-Class. An all-steam, all-armored battle group could pin and kill Thirsk's entire fleet even in Gorath Bay. In fact the Rivers would probably be a lot less vulnerable to the shoals in the bay.

Once the first half-dozen KH VIIs are completed I think Charis need to think about building a class of destroyers - maybe something like the Delthak, but in an ocean-going hull.

jms


Regardless of whether Silkiah flips or not, the Allies need that canal. It would be better to have a negotiated peace with Silkiah, but that might not be possible. In any event by the Spring the next gen River Class boats will be ready and their new 6" BLs will use smokeless powder propellant and explosive filler in the shells. The KH VIIs will also likely use smokeless propellant and shell filler. I am not sure if the troops accompanying the KH VIIs will have smokeless powder rounds initially.

In any case that fleet will need resupply. The more aggressive it plans to be the more it requires to be resupplied. By taking the Salthar Canal, Charis will save a massive amount of cargo shipping. That savings will make taking and holding the Salthar canal worthwhile. Also, if taking the canal means the River Class boats can operate in the Gulf of Dohlar, the benefits of taking it are huge. Silkiah either becomes an ally or another Siddermarkian province. If the latter case, I can see the new Silkian border moving south to just about the latitude of Jahras Island. If Desnair stays in the fight, that border moves further south to include all of the Gulf of Jahras and a swath of land around it as Siddermark continues to recover.

Once the Allies control the Salthar Canal, Dohlar and Desnair are seriously hosed. Sotuhern Harchong might escape much of the potential harm if they keep within Shwei Bay. So long as they don't venture north aggressively to supply Haven with supplies, the ICN might be wise to leave them be. Let South Harchong establish a de jure jihad and de facto neutrality. I don't see how Dohlar escapes a serious disembowelment. What arises from that carcas will be interesting.
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Re: Upcoming Ops (SPOILER)
Post by jmseeley   » Wed Mar 05, 2014 8:55 pm

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jmbm wrote:The idea of steam warships lighter than the 11,000 ton 10inch King Haarald battleships has already been discussed elsewhere. RFC created 3 theoretical designs of heavy and light cruisers, the 8 inch-armed Hurricane, 6in Maikelberg and 5in Comet classes, you can find them in page 6 of the thread below. The specs of the ríver ironclads can also be found in that thread, a couple of pages later on.

viewtopic.php?f=7&t=4116



Thanks for the link. Interesting & informative. I have to admit I was thinking of something not much larger than Delthak for escort and screening. The discussion showed me what that's not a particularly good concept.

jms
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Re: Upcoming Ops (SPOILER)
Post by jmseeley   » Wed Mar 05, 2014 10:22 pm

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PeterZ wrote:Regardless of whether Silkiah flips or not, the Allies need that canal. It would be better to have a negotiated peace with Silkiah, but that might not be possible. In any event by the Spring the next gen River Class boats will be ready and their new 6" BLs will use smokeless powder propellant and explosive filler in the shells. The KH VIIs will also likely use smokeless propellant and shell filler. I am not sure if the troops accompanying the KH VIIs will have smokeless powder rounds initially.

In any case that fleet will need resupply. The more aggressive it plans to be the more it requires to be resupplied. By taking the Salthar Canal, Charis will save a massive amount of cargo shipping. That savings will make taking and holding the Salthar canal worthwhile. Also, if taking the canal means the River Class boats can operate in the Gulf of Dohlar, the benefits of taking it are huge. Silkiah either becomes an ally or another Siddermarkian province. If the latter case, I can see the new Silkian border moving south to just about the latitude of Jahras Island. If Desnair stays in the fight, that border moves further south to include all of the Gulf of Jahras and a swath of land around it as Siddermark continues to recover.

Once the Allies control the Salthar Canal, Dohlar and Desnair are seriously hosed. Sotuhern Harchong might escape much of the potential harm if they keep within Shwei Bay. So long as they don't venture north aggressively to supply Haven with supplies, the ICN might be wise to leave them be. Let South Harchong establish a de jure jihad and de facto neutrality. I don't see how Dohlar escapes a serious disembowelment. What arises from that carcas will be interesting.


Hmm... Silkiah is part of the jihad, so it can't simply switch sides. Maybe seijin Ahbraim could quietly visit the Grand Duke and propose a low key 'invasion' to maintain appearances. Once the Alliance has control of the Salthar Canal they can effectively amputate Howard from the Havens.

My guess is that Desnair is effectively out of the war already. They've lost their field army and their economy isn't strong enough to replace it anytime soon. IIRC they basically relied on their gold mines to let them import most of what they needed. Right now, I think they would be happy to have a reason not to be an active player anymore. Like Delferahk, a nominal combatant but effective neutral.

I still think that Dohlar's best bet is to fortify its land approaches and hope the price is higher than Charis is prepared to pay. They might even be able to sell that to the Church by pointing out that they don't have the strength anymore to attack, but by preserving their remaining strength they threaten Charis' flank. If they can build strong enough fortifications it might even work. Since the Great Canal Raid, Charis seems to have followed a couple of principles:
1. It's better to attack the enemy's logistics than his army.
2. Let the enemy break himself by attacking your fortifications.

That would seem to argue for sealing off Dohlar and bypassing it. That could be helped by the ICN conducting operations along Dohlar's coast. That would draw forces that would otherwise be available to defend the Northern frontier. The Alliance could deal with Dohlar after it has dealt with Kaitswyrth's army, once they have the next generation of weapons (HE shells change fortifications from a barrier to an annoyance).

OTOH, Charis has a debt to be paid. And Dohlar is the most economically efficient of the Temples allies. Taking them down would be useful and satisfying.

jms
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Re: Upcoming Ops (SPOILER)
Post by McGuiness   » Thu Mar 06, 2014 5:58 am

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jmseeley wrote:OTOH, Charis has a debt to be paid. And Dohlar is the most economically efficient of the Temples allies. Taking them down would be useful and satisfying.

jms
Charis will pay that debt with interest, and now they have two seijins to make sure Thirsk's family escapes and King Ronald doesn't! :twisted:

"Oh bother", said Pooh as he glanced through the airlock window at the helmet he'd forgotten to wear.
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Re: Upcoming Ops (SPOILER)
Post by jmbm   » Thu Mar 06, 2014 7:29 am

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Just 2 comments,

1/ I fully agree regarding how important the Salthar Canal is. However, in a previous thread RFC described in detail the Salthar Canal and there are locks in the middle section of the canal. So, even assuming the eastern locks can be taken by surprise, the CoGA would have ample time to sabotage the central and western locks (those close to the Gulf of Dohlar). Is it feasible to take the canal AND use it before 6 months ?.

2/ There's an alternative, since RFC described the purpose-built new Delthak-class ironclads as "good seaboats, rides out heavy water easily", with a range of "3,500 miles at 5 earth knots". It would be for a group of ironclads to sail from Charis to a new base inside the Gulf of Dohlar (Trove island?). The logistics would be complicated, involving colliers, stopping to coal in Corisande, the Barren Lands & Claw Island (or Chisholm, Trellheim, Hill Island and Claw Island) and sailing in summer to avoid storms as much as possible. However, if you are able to base, say, 10 ironclads in the Dohlar Bank area (24 new ironclads are being built), you control the Gulf and there is nothing Thirsk's galleons can do against them.

PeterZ wrote:Regardless of whether Silkiah flips or not, the Allies need that canal.
............
By taking the Salthar Canal, Charis will save a massive amount of cargo shipping. That savings will make taking and holding the Salthar canal worthwhile. Also, if taking the canal means the River Class boats can operate in the Gulf of Dohlar, the benefits of taking it are huge.
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Re: Upcoming Ops (SPOILER)
Post by PeterZ   » Thu Mar 06, 2014 12:27 pm

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Addressing 1/- Let us review the events of LaMA. Admiral Shain has been busy destroying the shore installations around the Gulf of Jahras. He has done such a frighteningly effective job that all communication north using the Gulf becomes suspect. Desnair has to go around North Watch via the Gulf of Salthar. It is implied that Shain has landed troops to effect this. Suppose he lands a few mounted brigades to patrol the shores of the Gulf to help secure the area.

Now I ask you to consider the distance between the Northern edge of the Gulf of Jahras and the Salthar Cannal's middle sections. That distance is only about 200 miles. What's 200 miles for mounted brigades? Not much at all. If, when the time comes, he lands a few mounted brigades scattered along that North Shore of the Gulf, those brigades could move to secure the locks inland. The ICN can secure the locks at either end of the canal.

Addressing 2/- It might be done, but would take more time and resources than taking the canal. Besides, there is a reason those iron clads are called boats. They aren't meant to sail the ocean blue. They are definitely green water navy material. If the idea was to sail around Howard, Charis would have built smaller cruisers to accompany the KH VIIs.

jmbm wrote:Just 2 comments,

1/ I fully agree regarding how important the Salthar Canal is. However, in a previous thread RFC described in detail the Salthar Canal and there are locks in the middle section of the canal. So, even assuming the eastern locks can be taken by surprise, the CoGA would have ample time to sabotage the central and western locks (those close to the Gulf of Dohlar). Is it feasible to take the canal AND use it before 6 months ?.

2/ There's an alternative, since RFC described the purpose-built new Delthak-class ironclads as "good seaboats, rides out heavy water easily", with a range of "3,500 miles at 5 earth knots". It would be for a group of ironclads to sail from Charis to a new base inside the Gulf of Dohlar (Trove island?). The logistics would be complicated, involving colliers, stopping to coal in Corisande, the Barren Lands & Claw Island (or Chisholm, Trellheim, Hill Island and Claw Island) and sailing in summer to avoid storms as much as possible. However, if you are able to base, say, 10 ironclads in the Dohlar Bank area (24 new ironclads are being built), you control the Gulf and there is nothing Thirsk's galleons can do against them.
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Re: Upcoming Ops (SPOILER)
Post by dwileye13   » Thu Mar 06, 2014 5:15 pm

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I thought the 'Riverboats' actually tested out surprisingly well as ocean craft. I believe we will see them in the Gulf sooner than Thirsk is going to appreciate. Coaling/Fueling in the Gulf of Dohlar is problematic unless the Salthar Canal can be occupied. Not a great problem as soon, the RCN will own the Gulf and have cut the South Harchong production from shipping north.

The Church may find that problematic.
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Re: Upcoming Ops (SPOILER)
Post by MWadwell   » Thu Mar 06, 2014 6:40 pm

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dwileye13 wrote:(SNIP)

Coaling/Fueling in the Gulf of Dohlar is problematic unless the Salthar Canal can be occupied.

(SNIP)


On this, with the immenent launch of the KHVII, has anyone heard anything about freighters?

I mean, rather then relying on a galleon that can only carry a thousand (or so) tons of cargo, what about a more modern freighter to go along with the KHVII's?

Even a simple coal powered "Liberty" freighter of WW2 would be a massive increase in the amount of available shipping.....
.

Later,
Matt
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Re: Upcoming Ops (SPOILER)
Post by dwileye13   » Thu Mar 06, 2014 7:55 pm

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MWadwell wrote:
dwileye13 wrote:(SNIP)

Coaling/Fueling in the Gulf of Dohlar is problematic unless the Salthar Canal can be occupied.

(SNIP)


On this, with the immenent launch of the KHVII, has anyone heard anything about freighters?

I mean, rather then relying on a galleon that can only carry a thousand (or so) tons of cargo, what about a more modern freighter to go along with the KHVII's?

Even a simple coal powered "Liberty" freighter of WW2 would be a massive increase in the amount of available shipping.....


I think the focus is understandably on the warships, and Charis has an exceptional amount of shipping capacity both commercial and military. As the food shipments decline and with exports in the tube, sail cargo capacity has to be way up there.
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Re: Upcoming Ops (SPOILER)
Post by jmseeley   » Thu Mar 06, 2014 8:58 pm

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MWadwell wrote:
dwileye13 wrote:(SNIP)

Coaling/Fueling in the Gulf of Dohlar is problematic unless the Salthar Canal can be occupied.

(SNIP)


On this, with the immenent launch of the KHVII, has anyone heard anything about freighters?

I mean, rather then relying on a galleon that can only carry a thousand (or so) tons of cargo, what about a more modern freighter to go along with the KHVII's?

Even a simple coal powered "Liberty" freighter of WW2 would be a massive increase in the amount of available shipping.....


True, but it's also a huge increase in the coal requirement. Bulk cargo transportation by sail was used well into the 20th century. That said, a steam collier or two that could accompany the fleet would be a useful addition.

What ships get built (or not built) are probably driven by military requirements and the limited construction capacity that exists.

jms
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