BB(P/C) for rear area security

Theemile wrote:

SWM wrote:The spider drive is the one that uses the tractors--or something like tractors. I have argued a couple times that the term 'tractors' might have been a simplification in that description, or an application of a known term to a new technology, rather than implying that spider drives use a standard tractor. The spider drive is what Alignment stealth ships (and the graser torpedoes) use instead of impeller wedges for propulsion. An important note is that the spider drive will not protect a ship from grav waves. There has been much discussion about whether the spider drive ships could have alpha nodes, which would allow them to use wormholes and grav waves in hyper space.

I believe David's response to our questions about the Spider Drive ships not being able to use a Wormhole or transit a Grav wave, was something along the lines of "Why wouldn't they?" or "They wouldn't much good if they didn't". Which, while not really defining anything, seems to give creedenance that either the Spider drive still works in those situations where a wedge cannot, the spider drive can form a set of sails, or they have a dual drive system with Alpha nodes for Hyper and wormhole travel. The Geometry aspect of wedges and sails seems to lean against the 3rd option, but ram systems are always possible to give the correct node spacing.

Yeah, that's about what I recall too, but I wasn't confident enough of my memory to put that in.

SWM wrote:...

We know that the Alignment is using the streak drive on courier boats, but it is likely that they also use it on their larger ships, inclding the Ghosts, Sharks, and Detweilers. The streak drive is simply a supersized hyper generator, about twice the normal size, which allows access to higher levels of hyperspace.
...

Is it really likely?
Detweilers i think yes, as their size should offset the size penalty of the larger streakdrive, but the others?

Tenshinai wrote:

SWM wrote:...

We know that the Alignment is using the streak drive on courier boats, but it is likely that they also use it on their larger ships, inclding the Ghosts, Sharks, and Detweilers. The streak drive is simply a supersized hyper generator, about twice the normal size, which allows access to higher levels of hyperspace.
...

Is it really likely?
Detweilers i think yes, as their size should offset the size penalty of the larger streakdrive, but the others?

Yes, I think it is likely. If they can design a courier boat with one which does not look so overgrown that anyone notices, I think they can design warships with the spider drive. If it fits on a courier, it can certainly fit on something a lot bigger. And the advantages of reaching higher hyper bands than anyone else makes it worth it.

SWM wrote:Yes, I think it is likely. If they can design a courier boat with one which does not look so overgrown that anyone notices, I think they can design warships with the spider drive. If it fits on a courier, it can certainly fit on something a lot bigger. And the advantages of reaching higher hyper bands than anyone else makes it worth it.

Ah but we don´t actually know if their streak courier boat IS the same size a regular one.
Or how much they had to sacrifice to make it fit.

From the few hints given, i expect their courier boats to be larger, excused to the galaxy at large as them being used to move around executive personnel in plushy comfort.

It´s not stated but that´s the direction it feels like in the few parts where such ships have a 1st hand presence.

n7axw wrote:Use of sharks with spider (prototypes) had a different signature that permitted them to drop out of hyper without being challenged by Manticore because defences didn't recognize what they were seeing.

That's not quite true. The Sharks produced a perfectly normal hyper transit signal. They did reduce the transit signal as much as possible, by bringing their relative velocity to zero before doing a slow transit, but we've seen other ships with normal hyper generators do the same thing. The problem is that, at the distance they came in, it is hard to detect the signals and you get a lot of false detections as well as real ones. They were challenged, or at least investigated. Manticoran policy was to send out ships to check every detection, but they weren't all that surprised when they didn't find anything there--how many times had they ever seen a real transit out that far?. The Sharks had snuck away with spider drive; the Manticorans didn't see any wedges so they didn't think anyone could have gotten out of range by the time they got there.

So Manticore did see it, and did respond to it and search for potential intruders. And after the Yawata Strike, they will be sure to search a wider region, and look even harder for stealthy drive signatures.

Tenshinai wrote:

SWM wrote:Yes, I think it is likely. If they can design a courier boat with one which does not look so overgrown that anyone notices, I think they can design warships with the spider drive. If it fits on a courier, it can certainly fit on something a lot bigger. And the advantages of reaching higher hyper bands than anyone else makes it worth it.

Ah but we don´t actually know if their streak courier boat IS the same size a regular one.
Or how much they had to sacrifice to make it fit.

From the few hints given, i expect their courier boats to be larger, excused to the galaxy at large as them being used to move around executive personnel in plushy comfort.

It´s not stated but that´s the direction it feels like in the few parts where such ships have a 1st hand presence.

Yes, I agree that it is probably a little bit larger. But my point is that it can't be so much larger that anyone thought it was unusually large. That places a serious limit on how big the streak drive could be.

And the stealth ships all have spider drive, so the size does not affect the acceleration. When they are designing a stealth ship, they can afford to make it a few kilotons bigger to fit in a streak drive. They don't lose any acceleration, and they get a big advantage in hyper bands. By making it just a little bigger, they don't have to give up any armor or bunkerage or weapons. The advantage is huge, and the only downsides are slightly higher price and construction time.

Why would they not add the streak drive to spider ships? Yes, I think it is likely that the Ghost, Shark, and Detweiler designs have the streak drive.

Tenshinai wrote:

kzt wrote:Not if DD's become glass popguns like Frigates are. Essentially the prediction is that they will find themselves neither deliver enough missiles to be effective at killing peer ships, nor can they withstand the fire from peer vessels. At which point any mission that includes any significant chance of combat with modern vessels becomes a mission you can't assign them.

Yes but even as they are now, they´re not designed for "big battle", and while their scouting role is at least in part taken over by long range drones, they are still needed for the classical duties of screen and light units.

Well, most of the classical screen and minor system defense duties are being taken over by LACs, so they don't need to do that anymore.

Tenshinai wrote:There is even a small risk that they can´t replicate one or both technologies because they may be using solutions so radically different that noone can figure them out without getting either a sample or some more data on the relevant parts.

Replicating the Streak Drive is virtually certain as they have one of the key researchers for it and it has been described as more a novel combination of existing developments than something wholly new that the Alignment has came up with.

The Spider Drive is going to be much harder but Simoes is likely to have enough to at least get them pointed in the right direction(even if its only something like "it uses really powerful and focused tractor beams to grab onto the alpha wall and pull the ship along" that at least gives them somewhere to start from)

Grashtel wrote:

Tenshinai wrote:There is even a small risk that they can´t replicate one or both technologies because they may be using solutions so radically different that noone can figure them out without getting either a sample or some more data on the relevant parts.

Replicating the Streak Drive is virtually certain as they have one of the key researchers for it and it has been described as more a novel combination of existing developments than something wholly new that the Alignment has came up with.

The Spider Drive is going to be much harder but Simoes is likely to have enough to at least get them pointed in the right direction(even if its only something like "it uses really powerful and focused tractor beams to grab onto the alpha wall and pull the ship along" that at least gives them somewhere to start from)

There's no reason to believe that he knows even that much about the Spider Drive. He may never have even heard of it--Gamma Center was extremely compartmentalized.

SWM wrote:There's no reason to believe that he knows even that much about the Spider Drive. He may never have even heard of it--Gamma Center was extremely compartmentalized.

He knows the name (Manticorans have used it). I'd be shocked if he didn't know the basic concept.