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Development of fuelless powerplants?

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Re: Development of fuelless powerplants?
Post by Gunny   » Mon Mar 03, 2014 5:17 pm

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Belial666 wrote:
The proposed plant works as follows;

1) Create lots of solar troughs using silver and glass, both of which Charis has.

2) At the focal line of the solar troughs you have a (preferably ceramic) pipe filled with Tin/Lead alloy for its really low melting point and comparatively high boiling point.

3) The solar troughs start melting the tin/lead alloy once they hit a bit over 200 C in temperature so you now have a liquid that can be moved around, melt a bit more of the alloy and slowly increase the amount pumped into the system in a liquid state. Over the course of a day, the solar troughs can reach very high temperatures, easy exceeding 600 C, with 3000 C being possible (though the latter is ill-advised; the pipes will burst)

4) You store the high-temperature molten tin/lead in an accumulator, like the ones normally used for water. A sufficiently large accumulator with a bit of insulation will take many days or even weeks to fall again below the melting point. That can be used to store the energy with higher energy densities than batteries for much cheaper, easy and simple to produce materials. Of course, you don't let it to cool down over days - you use most of the heat over the day and night in your industrial needs until the mix is low-temperature but still liquid the next day when you send it into the solar troughs to be reheated.

5) You can feed the high-temperature mixture into a boiler to heat water and produce steam without burning fuel. You can feed the mixture into a modified furnance to heat it to 600 C or more, reducing the fuel requirements by 30-40% (or even higher, with a bigger solar plant that gains higher temperatures)


6) Once the proscriptions are lifted and the Rakurai is gone at a later date, upgrading the plant to electricity production is really easy.


This reminds me of chocolate factories. In them chocolate is piped around to the various machinery that makes it into bars, cubes, M&M pellets or whatever.

But once in a while the factories shut down. There's a leak in the piping, a fire, a bomb (Perhaps one of the Temple Loyalists.) goes off, the workers go on strike -- whatever.

Then the chocolate in the piping solidifies.

Chocolate factories are built with each length of pipe fitted with disconnects. If the plant freezes, all the piping it taken down, heated in a big oven, and the chocolate removed.

Can you imagine a few miles of pipe filled with a tin/lead mixture, (i.e. solder) where the solder has solidified.

And, can you imagine the same thing in the pumps, elbows, manifolds. And how do you build things like pressure gauges?

Fossil fuels look better and better.
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Re: Development of fuelless powerplants?
Post by cralkhi   » Mon Mar 03, 2014 11:19 pm

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MWadwell wrote:Just to raise a stupid question, but how is this energy used?

I mean, is there going to be a industrial settlement co-located with the solar power generator? If not, how is the energy to be transfered to the nearest settlement?


Yeah, I was talking about the US Southwest where the cities are basically 'in the desert' ie outside the suburbs it's desert. West of Salt Lake City is basically unpopulated emptiness, a lot of it is even salt flats. Las Vegas is an "artificially watered" oasis in the desert too; a lot of California is also desert yet has massive populations, etc. etc.

The stuff about producing 1 Terawatt and so on was just me extrapolating wildly, you couldn't actually use that much in the area, I don't think...
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Re: Development of fuelless powerplants?
Post by MWadwell   » Tue Mar 04, 2014 5:44 am

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cralkhi wrote:
MWadwell wrote:Just to raise a stupid question, but how is this energy used?

I mean, is there going to be a industrial settlement co-located with the solar power generator? If not, how is the energy to be transfered to the nearest settlement?


Yeah, I was talking about the US Southwest where the cities are basically 'in the desert' ie outside the suburbs it's desert. West of Salt Lake City is basically unpopulated emptiness, a lot of it is even salt flats. Las Vegas is an "artificially watered" oasis in the desert too; a lot of California is also desert yet has massive populations, etc. etc.

The stuff about producing 1 Terawatt and so on was just me extrapolating wildly, you couldn't actually use that much in the area, I don't think...


Yeah, I can see where this is feasible in spots in the US.

But to bring it back to Safehold..... :D

Where can this be used in Safehold?
.

Later,
Matt
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Re: Development of fuelless powerplants?
Post by AirTech   » Tue Mar 04, 2014 6:19 am

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MWadwell wrote:The stuff about producing 1 Terawatt and so on was just me extrapolating wildly, you couldn't actually use that much in the area, I don't think...


Yeah, I can see where this is feasible in spots in the US.

But to bring it back to Safehold..... :D

Where can this be used in Safehold?[/quote]

It can't - no power transmission over long distances because no electricity until the OBS is taken down. Small systems may work as hot water services though. Maximum power is limited to what can be transmitted mechanically, hydraulically or pneumatically, a factor of mechanical strength of shafts and piping and rationality. (That is why we have electricity - higher energy delivery with less raw materials). Distance limit is in miles not tens of miles.
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Re: Development of fuelless powerplants?
Post by Castenea   » Tue Mar 04, 2014 6:13 pm

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AirTech wrote:Yeah, I can see where this is feasible in spots in the US.

But to bring it back to Safehold..... :D

Where can this be used in Safehold?


It can't - no power transmission over long distances because no electricity until the OBS is taken down. Small systems may work as hot water services though. Maximum power is limited to what can be transmitted mechanically, hydraulically or pneumatically, a factor of mechanical strength of shafts and piping and rationality. (That is why we have electricity - higher energy delivery with less raw materials). Distance limit is in miles not tens of miles.[/quote]This type of solar Thermal might also be useable in places like Egypt, certain locales in South Africa, or parts of Austrailia, but there are not very may places where you have desert with a concentrated population in the limited arable land. Most Arable land in deserts is either oasis or marginal supporting a small population, and the Nile Valley is probably the largest population center in a desert that could benefit from this kind of setup.
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Re: Development of fuelless powerplants?
Post by Thucydides   » Wed Mar 05, 2014 1:50 am

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Even in developed nations like Germany or the US (where "Green" has taken root) it is very difficult to deliver the "Green" energy to market. The grid needs to be radically upgraded to allow for long distance transmission of energy, not to mention evening out the delivery of energy to the grid. Superconducting transmission cables and an advanced switching network to match fluctuating supply and demand are likely needed to make this work.

Germany has had several instances where fluctuating winds in the North Sea have destabilized the grid (sudden mismatches between demand and supply), and in Ontario there is a large scale building program to have gas turbine generators on standby (running at "hot idle" 24/7) to kick in instantly if the wind farms suddenly fluctuate due to the wind dying down. The opposite problem of sudden surges in the wind is solved by venting steam at thermal and nuclear plants, and spilling water at hydro stations. If all else fails, electrical energy is "dumped" for $.04 KW/h to New York State, even though the Ontario taxpayer pays $.135 KW/h for "Green" energy and $.08 KW/h for conventional energy.

Something to remember the next time a politician or a crony capitalist wants to spend your tax dollars on "Green" energy.
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Re: Development of fuelless powerplants?
Post by keylime314   » Wed Mar 05, 2014 12:21 pm

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Thucydides wrote:Superconducting transmission cables and an advanced switching network to match fluctuating supply and demand are likely needed to make this work.


You don't need anything of the sort. High voltage ac (345kV - 765kV) and dc (1mV+, no taps between line ends) lines are used perfectly fine right now. The problem is they often aren't in the best areas for renewables. Which is not really a problem because the Tranmission owners get the construction costs back from charging the Wind and solar farm owners to get the power to cities for the 70-100 year lifespan of the lines.

Thucydides wrote:Germany has had several instances where fluctuating winds in the North Sea have destabilized the grid (sudden mismatches between demand and supply),


That very rarely happens anymore. Wind forecasting software is accurate to within +-10% of power output a day out and gets more accurate the closer the closer to real time you get. The Operations control center 2 floors below me doesn't have any problems integrating gigawatts of wind into our system. It's a much bigger problem with solar on partly cloudy days, but that's not hard to handle according to grid operators I've talked to. Line tripping due to accidents is and has always been the much bigger worry.

Thucydides wrote: and in Ontario there is a large scale building program to have gas turbine generators on standby (running at "hot idle" 24/7) to kick in instantly if the wind farms suddenly fluctuate due to the wind dying down.


That 'hot idle' is a standard industry practice even without any renewables. It's properly called 'spinning reserve'. It allows the balancing authority to immediately place additional generation online, ignoring start up times and (somewhat) ignoring ramp rates during emergency operations. The primary use of spinning reserve is in case a line breaker trips and immediate relief is required to prevent other lines from tripping due and bringing everything down, not compensating for renewables.

There's also non-spinning reserve, which is where the generation facility is staffed but completely off. All non-renewable generation is always in either operation, spinning reserve, non-spinning reserve, or maintenance.

Thucydides wrote:If all else fails, electrical energy is "dumped" for $.04 KW/h to New York State, even though the Ontario taxpayer pays $.135 KW/h for "Green" energy and $.08 KW/h for conventional energy.


Out of curiousity, where did you get those numbers? They're fairly different from what I work with everyday.
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Re: Development of fuelless powerplants?
Post by Aegis99   » Wed Mar 05, 2014 2:19 pm

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Thucydides wrote:Even in developed nations like Germany or the US (where "Green" has taken root) it is very difficult to deliver the "Green" energy to market.
Snipped


If i was Germany I would be more concerned with the 8 days in 2008 where not a single wind turbine in the country generated electricity commercially repeating itself over again as they increase their dependence on wind.

I have a video that I found particularly enlightening by one of the guys building an experimental molten salt reactor. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2zD0m_ci-oo It's pretty long, but you can ignore most of the second half if you're not interested in nuclear energy. The first half though examines predictions for the electrical grid of the next 15 years and what changes we can expect as the amount of renewables increases. His premise boils down to that renewables (especially photovoltaics) create a very unstable electrical grid. not because of when it is NOT operating, but actually the problems come from when they ARE running. If you have the time, it's a good perspective
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Re: Development of fuelless powerplants?
Post by kbus888   » Thu Mar 06, 2014 1:08 am

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=2014/03/06=

?? Transmitted via a high voltage direct current cable to the point of usage (DC to avoid EM wave transmission) where it could be converted to AC which can be converted to a lower voltage for domestic use ??

R
.

MWadwell wrote:
Aegis99 wrote:(SNIP)

Sure, but consider that a desert is also a very inhospitable environment with high winds, and by definition a high amount of heat. Those fancy thin film panels fail under those conditions. I think a 1cm thick panel is very reasonable for structural reasons and for durability. Which if you're covering an entire desert in something durability is going to be a prime design consideration.

That doesn't even consider replacement issues. Current technology panels lose about 1/3 of their electrical generating potential in 5-10 years, with complete impotency after 20 years. That means your desert of panels is going to have to be continuously replaced every twenty years.

As you pointed out though, this is not something safehold can/would use at this stage.


Just to raise a stupid question, but how is this energy used?

I mean, is there going to be a industrial settlement co-located with the solar power generator? If not, how is the energy to be transfered to the nearest settlement?
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Re: Development of fuelless powerplants?
Post by MWadwell   » Thu Mar 06, 2014 8:21 am

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But DC produces AC EM, and we know that AC EM will be targetted by the Rakurai....


Later,
Matt

kbus888 wrote:=2014/03/06=

?? Transmitted via a high voltage direct current cable to the point of usage (DC to avoid EM wave transmission) where it could be converted to AC which can be converted to a lower voltage for domestic use ??

R
.
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