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Future weapons based on LAMA small SPOILER.

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Re: Future weapons based on LAMA small SPOILER.
Post by mistwalker   » Fri Feb 28, 2014 6:00 pm

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Back to mistwalker's opening comment in this thread. A lot of armies think the MG42 fires too fast. It has the problem that the enemy soldier gets hit multiple times when once is enough on a round this size. Hence most MG's fire at about 600 rounds per minute.

[/quote]

600 rounds is a minimum :
The C6 7.62-mm Medium Machine Gun is a fully-automatic, air-cooled, gas- and spring-operated machine gun that is generally belt-fed from the left. Restricted to firing in full-automatic mode from the open bolt position, the C6 machine gun can fire from 750 to 1100 rounds per minute.
The C9 could fire from 650 to 1000 rounds per minute

M 60 has is in the range you are describing.
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Re: Future weapons based on LAMA small SPOILER.
Post by jmbm   » Fri Feb 28, 2014 6:03 pm

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mistwalker wrote:The only problem I have with maxim that the weapon is water cooled, I think it would be better to skip that step and go to the air cooled weapons :)


Yes, going straight to a 0.45 M2 Browning-like heavy machine gun.

Another weapon they could develop is a 0.45 SMG firing the smokeless pistol cartridge. Both the Thompson and the M3 World War II SMG were 0.45 calibre.
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Re: Future weapons based on LAMA small SPOILER.
Post by Gunny   » Fri Feb 28, 2014 7:11 pm

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mistwalker wrote:The only problem I have with maxim that the weapon is water cooled, I think it would be better to skip that step and go to the air cooled weapons :)


Goof Idea, air cooling is certainly a lot lighter, less cumbersome, cheaper to make, etc.

But you've got to have very special high temperature steels that can stand the temperature while holding shape. Otherwise when they get that hot they tend to bend, and rifling goes quickly.

The MG42 solved this problem with easily changed barrels, but this combined with its high rate of fire meant that the machine gun crew had eight people.
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Re: Future weapons based on LAMA small SPOILER.
Post by Henry Brown   » Fri Feb 28, 2014 7:17 pm

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jmbm wrote:
mistwalker wrote:The only problem I have with maxim that the weapon is water cooled, I think it would be better to skip that step and go to the air cooled weapons :)


Yes, going straight to a 0.45 M2 Browning-like heavy machine gun.

Another weapon they could develop is a 0.45 SMG firing the smokeless pistol cartridge. Both the Thompson and the M3 World War II SMG were 0.45 calibre.


Submachine guns were not really that widely used in most 20th century armies (the one possible exception being the Red Arm in WWII), so I am not sure that a SMG would be a high priority. I think a full-up light or medium machine gun would be a much higher priority.

But if they did want to develop a SMG, I am not sure the Thompson would be the best choice. From what I remember, it was rather heavy and expensive to manufacture.
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Re: Future weapons based on LAMA small SPOILER.
Post by Gunny   » Fri Feb 28, 2014 7:34 pm

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mistwalker wrote:600 rounds is a minimum :
The C6 7.62-mm Medium Machine Gun is a fully-automatic, air-cooled, gas- and spring-operated machine gun that is generally belt-fed from the left. Restricted to firing in full-automatic mode from the open bolt position, the C6 machine gun can fire from 750 to 1100 rounds per minute.
The C9 could fire from 650 to 1000 rounds per minute

M 60 has is in the range you are describing.


The C6 is a modern sheet metal wonder, which we don't see much of in Safehold. It further has a chrome lined chamber and barrel (to combat the heat/erosion problem) which is a no-no on Safehold as it uses electricity to plate the chrome.

Further it is gas operated. Again a problem on Safehold as this require closer tolerances than it appears possible with their current state of technology both in machining and in producing a really clean burning smokeless powder, while as of yet they haven't invented the first powder made from gun cotton.

As for rate of fire, this is set by policy, not just the hardware. The 1919 (.30 cal) and M2 (.50 cal) referenced in your first post fired at 550-650 in ground use, about 1,000 when used in aircraft wings (Spitfire, Mustang, B-17) and about 1,300 in the back seat turrets of Navy bombers. The Austrian Schwarzlose had different models that fired from about 400 to 880 rpm.
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Re: Future weapons based on LAMA small SPOILER.
Post by mistwalker   » Fri Feb 28, 2014 7:54 pm

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As for rate of fire, this is set by policy, not just the hardware. The 1919 (.30 cal) and M2 (.50 cal) referenced in your first post fired at 550-650 in ground use, about 1,000 when used in aircraft wings (Spitfire, Mustang, B-17) and about 1,300 in the back seat turrets of Navy bombers. The Austrian Schwarzlose had different models that fired from about 400 to 880 rpm.

[/quote]

But then don't you think it would be possible to lower the firing rite in something like MG 42?


The C6 is a modern sheet metal wonder, which we don't see much of in Safehold. It further has a chrome lined chamber and barrel (to combat the heat/erosion problem) which is a no-no on Safehold as it uses electricity to plate the chrome.


I uset this example to point it that there are weapons with high r.p.m numbers,
I know how hot a C6 barrel gets , and how many bullets you can fire before you can "see" it flying thought the barrel, lets just say I had a close personal experience with it :D. we are talking in hypotheticals, on Safeford they are not yet at gas operated stage but I am looking what could be practical :) whit the stuff they have :)

and no one yet mentioned a combat shotgun :) or steam powered Gatling guns for the ships which use boilers :lol:
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Re: Future weapons based on LAMA small SPOILER.
Post by pokermind   » Sat Mar 01, 2014 10:09 am

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Just to yank runsforcelery's tail and pull the Duckk's tail featers, if we didn't they might think we don't like them any more :twisted: , the wheel-lock Gatling gun cartridge that Clynton might approve:

Image

Come Percy it's time to leave this silly thread and return to Camelot Image before we give RFC and the Duckk a headache Image

Poker :lol:
CPO Poker Mind Image and, Mangy Fur the Smart Alick Spacecat.

"Better to be hung for a hexapuma than a housecat," Com. Pang Yau-pau, ART.
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Re: Future weapons based on LAMA small SPOILER.
Post by mathewritchie   » Sat Mar 01, 2014 11:04 pm

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Damonby wrote:I don't believe this war is going to last long enough for machine guns to be developed. I also don't believe that they would be necessary.

If you look at the relative tech advantages that Charis has, it is hard for me to imagine that WW I style trench war stalemates are going to happen.

Why? Because both sides in WW I had relatively the same tech advancement in small arms and artillery, making it impossible for either side to dominate the battlefield for a long enough period of time to end trench warfare. Charis already has a large and widening head start in metallurgy and tech, in things like mortar production, recoil systems for artillery, metals capable of withstanding the bore pressures and stresses needed for rifled breech loading small arms and artillery, etc.

When a dug in AoG formation meets an ICA assault, they will have to contend with no artillery support (it having been eliminated by the superior firepower and range of ICA artillery) and be forced to keep their heads down in their trenches because of mortar fire and the fire of breech loading, magazine fed, bolt action rifles that in the latter stages of the war will be using ammo with smokeless powder.

This is such a complete disparity that IT WON'T MATTER if the AoG is dug in. Once any breach is created in an AoG trench, the whole thing gets rolled up. The AoG is not going to have machine guns to use to protect those trenches. They have so far to go to get to that stage that the war is already going to be over.

Please accept this as a gigantic IMO.

You might look at the Māori Wars (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Zealand_Wars)
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Re: Future weapons based on LAMA small SPOILER.
Post by Damonby   » Sun Mar 02, 2014 12:53 am

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mathewritchie wrote:You might look at the Māori Wars (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Zealand_Wars)


Hi Mathew,

Thank you for the link. I enjoy reading about the history of things like this, especially since it falls well outside my own usual reading areas.

I noticed in the tactics and strategy section the article mentions that the British troops for much of the war were using Lee Enfield Pattern 1853 muzzle loaders, also a popular weapon during the ACW.

It also notes that one of the more notable successes that occurred against the Maori was by the New Zealand Rangers, armed with Calisher and Terry rifles, the very rifle that RFC modeled the first Mandryhan muzzle loaders after.

Even though the Maori were able to create redoubts that could stand up against ACW era muzzle loading artillery and troops armed with muzzle loaders, IMO that still doesn't negate the main thrust of my post. The ICA in these stories have much better weapons, both small arms and artillery, than the British had during the Maori War, as well as better tactics.

I suspect that OWL also has this War in it's wiki, allowing the ICA to adapt to any parts of it that their tactics might not currently take into account.

One aspect of the war on Safehold that is going to weigh so heavily against the church is that the ICA will be able to adjust so quickly to any change in tactics the AoG might devise because of OWL, a tactical military computer with a dataset of hundreds of years of human warfare examples to draw from.

Again, I may propose but RFC disposes.
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Re: Future weapons based on LAMA small SPOILER.
Post by Gunny   » Sun Mar 02, 2014 5:33 pm

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mistwalker wrote:But then don't you think it would be possible to lower the firing rite in something like MG 42?


Yes, you could certainly put in some kind of retarding hardware, but why?

The action would be difficult to build using Safehold technology. The feed system requires sheet metal linking in the belts with each link the little finger to hold the cartridges in place.

I think Safehold would do better with cloth belts as most of the earlier guns used. And the action on Maxim, Browning, et al worked just fine for fifty years or so.

I uset this example to point it that there are weapons with high r.p.m numbers, I know how hot a C6 barrel gets , and how many bullets you can fire before you can "see" it flying thought the barrel, lets just say I had a close personal experience with it :D. we are talking in hypotheticals, on Safeford they are not yet at gas operated stage but I am looking what could be practical :) whit the stuff they have :)

and no one yet mentioned a combat shotgun :) or steam powered Gatling guns for the ships which use boilers :lol:


You might be interested in watching this You Tube video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zh8lDgV993A It shows the firing of an 850 round burst out of an M60E4. Barrel technology moves on. But I wouldn't want to touch the thing just afterward.

And the US Navy steam powered Gatlings, usually mounted on the top of the mast for shooting down at the decks of close enemy ships. IIRC the 'Maine' had one (or more) of them in 1898.
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