Future weapons based on LAMA small SPOILER.

The only problem, is that with the current M96 cartridge, it's going to be a hell of a MG! In fact, to handle that kind of recoil, it's going to be too large to be called a "squad weapon".

From memory, with smokeless powder, the M96 cartridge will push a 500 grain bullet to 2700 fps. This is comparable to a M2 bullet of ~650 grains at ~3000 fps.

So the M96 MG will have a similar role as the M2, which is a company support weapon (not a squad weapon).

Of course, if a smaller calibre bullet is developed (i.e. for a AK-style semiautomatic rifle), then that would be perfect for a squad weapon.....

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So the M2 will be better suited for the larger bullet, and would become a heave machine gun , I admit I wasn't paying attention to bullet size just thinking of practicality of building a weapon system, and you are right smaller bullet would make better platform for a squad support weapon

We need to remember that technologically we are seeing armies at about the American Civil War/Franco Prussian war level of technology, so machine-guns and automatic weapons are at least a generation away for company and platoon sized weapons, and two generations for squad and individual weapons. (I know there were interesting prototypes and very limited production examples earlier, and the French developed the theoretical tactical use of squad automatic weapons as far back as 1903, but we are talking about wide spread adoption).

As for grenade launchers, rifle grenades were common in the Great War (1914-1918), and the Canadian platoon of that period was built around a section of "bombers" (grenadiers), a rifle grenade section and a Lewis Gun (light machine gun) section. Most of the troops in a platoon were actually ammo carriers for the bombers, rifle grenadiers and machine gunners, which should give you an idea of what military forces in the future of Safehold "might" look like.

As for the M-79 and its descendants, the key to these kinds of weapons is a special low recoil cartridge using the "High-Low Pressure Gun" principle. Essentially, a very small amount of propellant is ignited in a tiny "cup" in the bottom of the cartridge, and the gas flows out of multiple small holes into a larger space behind the round, until enough pressure is built up to break any mechanical link holding the round in the cartridge and push it down the barrel. This was pioneered by the Germans near the end of WWII, and used in a very limited number of anti tank cannons (the PAW 600 [Panzerabwehrwerfer 600] being the most notable).

As a bit of weapons trivia, the automatic grenade launcher was actually invented in the USSR in the mid 1930's, using modified light mortar ammunition, but the Taubin automatic grenade launcher died with its inventor during the purges. Although we might think of an automatic grenade launcher as a fairly obvious invention, the idea did not surface again until the Viet Nam war 30 years later with the Mk 19. Even in the USSR, automatic grenade launchers did not come into vogue until the late 1970's, although they went two ways with this, the AGS-17 grenade launcher (a platoon support weapon), and the 2B9 Vasilek, which might be thought of as an overgrown development of the Taubin. As an automatic 82mm mortar this was a company/battalion support weapon.

Would the fusing be a problem with a grenade launcher? We're talking about a fairly small round, I think/guess

mistwalker wrote:

The only problem, is that with the current M96 cartridge, it's going to be a hell of a MG! In fact, to handle that kind of recoil, it's going to be too large to be called a "squad weapon".

From memory, with smokeless powder, the M96 cartridge will push a 500 grain bullet to 2700 fps. This is comparable to a M2 bullet of ~650 grains at ~3000 fps.

So the M96 MG will have a similar role as the M2, which is a company support weapon (not a squad weapon).

Of course, if a smaller calibre bullet is developed (i.e. for a AK-style semiautomatic rifle), then that would be perfect for a squad weapon.....

With a black powder load a Gatling gun would be an option, once smokeless powder becomes common then a relatively simple conversion of the M96 bolt action rifles to self loading would be possible (it was done with Lee Enfields (another black powder to smokeless conversion) in the 1930's).

So the M2 will be better suited for the larger bullet, and would become a heave machine gun , I admit I wasn't paying attention to bullet size just thinking of practicality of building a weapon system, and you are right smaller bullet would make better platform for a squad support weapon[/quote]

[quote="PeterZ"][quote="Damonby"]I don't believe this war is going to last long enough for machine guns to be developed. I also don't believe that they would be necessary.

snip
This is such a complete disparity that IT WON'T MATTER if the AoG is dug in. Once any breach is created in an AoG trench, the whole thing gets rolled up. The AoG is not going to have machine guns to use to protect those trenches. They have so far to go to get to that stage that the war is already going to be over.

Please accept this as a gigantic IMO.[/quote]

Totally agree with you. As soon as Duchairn and Magwair realize this, they will offer to negotiate. Magwair in the hopes that negotiations will lead to more parity in the military capabilities. Duchairn in the true hopes of an equitible resolution. That offer will come upon Clyntahn's removal of course.

As I posted before, the Inquisition might be defanged slightly. They would lose their broad powers to compel obedience, but retain their authority to define what is or isn't in compliance with the Proscriptions. If the CoGA keeps its fingers in how innovations are developed, they can maitain some control of the other CoGA nations and also develop a lucrative alternative revenue source.

If that is the state of affairs for the 2 decades leading into the Return, the next story arc will be very interesting indeed. 2 decades of cold war would do wonders for technological development, especially if the OBS is knocked out at the end of this war.[/quote]


I disagree with the notion of negotiating. When it was declared Jihad, this war became a total war that can only be ended by defeat and unconditional surrender. Ideally this should include accountability for initiating the war and the atrocities committed by the inquisition. The inquisition itself must be completely broken and dismantled.

RFC may well see it differently, but what he has given us so far is no game that can be ended with an "aw shucks, I'm sorry."

Don

Henry Brown wrote:I suggested a single shot grenade launcher like the M-79 earlier in the thread. In real life, it didn't show up until the Korean war era and it saw extensive use in Vietnam as well. But I don't see any technological reason it couldn't be made before that period. It is not a very complicated weapon.

You are right, the M-79 is not a complicated weapon.

BUT, the fuze that it has is non-trivial. It's armed at some distance from the muzzle (30 meters) by centrifugal force generated by the spin of the round. It further will return to safe if it doesn't hit solidly enough to go off. Half of the weight, half of the length of the M-79 grenade is fuze.

The M79 was a result of Project Niblick, an attempt to increase firepower for the infantryman by having an explosive projectile more accurate with further range than rifle grenades, but more portable than a mortar. Project Niblick created the 40 x 46 mm grenade, but was unable to create a satisfactory launcher for it that could fire more than a single shot. One of the launchers at Springfield Armory was the single-shot break-open, shoulder-fired S-3. It was refined into the S-5, which resembled an over-sized shotgun. Unable to develop a suitable multi-shot launcher, the Army adopted the S-5 as the XM79. With a new sight, the XM79 was officially adopted as the M79 on December 15, 1960. (From Wikipedia)

It wasn't a Korean war weapon, but Vietnam.

Machine guns will be first. The Maxim was patented in 1884.

Likewise the explosive used in the shell is a high explosive, and so far the only explosives we know of in the books is black powder and gun cotton. Something on the order of TNT has to be discovered first.

And as several people have pointed out the Hi-Lo pressure system will also take a series of new inventions. The 40 mm grenade development started with an investigation into how much recoil the average soldier could take. This combined with the weight of the projectile gave its speed. Then they had to design something that would chunk it out at that speed, hence the Hi-Lo system.

Back to mistwalker's opening comment in this thread. A lot of armies think the MG42 fires too fast. It has the problem that the enemy soldier gets hit multiple times when once is enough on a round this size. Hence most MG's fire at about 600 rounds per minute.

Gunny wrote:
Machine guns will be first. The Maxim was patented in 1884.

Back to mistwalker's opening comment in this thread. A lot of armies think the MG42 fires too fast. It has the problem that the enemy soldier gets hit multiple times when once is enough on a round this size. Hence most MG's fire at about 600 rounds per minute.

You are preaching to the choir about the Maxim gun. I have been saying since the end of MT&T that Charis should skip over the Gatling and go straight to the Maxim.

Henry Brown wrote:You are preaching to the choir about the Maxim gun. I have been saying since the end of MT&T that Charis should skip over the Gatling and go straight to the Maxim.

Yes, the Maxim was before the '98 Mauser, the Enfield, the Springfield, etc

Gunny wrote:Yes, the Maxim was before the '98 Mauser, the Enfield, the Springfield, etc

Also the initial prototypes of the Maxim were designed for the standard British rifle cartridge at the time. Which was a .45 caliber BP round that was pretty close in performance to what the M-96 is. A pretty interesting account of the development of the Maxim can be found here: http://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/USN/ref/MG/I/MG-3.html

The only problem I have with maxim that the weapon is water cooled, I think it would be better to skip that step and go to the air cooled weapons