Future weapons based on LAMA small SPOILER.

Of course, once the metallic cartridge is established in rifle sizes it is then a short technical step to the "Soixante-Quinze" and the Ordnance QF 25-pounder.

Not that big an "if" at all. If this story arc is to be completed in the next book or two, Clyntahn has to die. So long as he lives, we can't skip forward as RFC suggests we will. The options will be either a complete and total Allied victory resulting in Clyntahn's death or Clyntahn dead and the CoGA negotiates a truce before their total defeat.

But that still a year or more of the conflict.

Clyntahn will die in the near term. He either dies at Rohbair's hands or after the ICA captures Zion.

Given the progression of weapons being developed by Charis, pretty soon writing about this conflict will be military porn. Booooring! RFC is anything but boring. The CoGA needs some time to try and catch up and Magwair knows it. Cold war here we come!

[/quote]


I hope you are right:)

Hi mistwalker,

Well, to expand on my earlier answer, I believe it will be relatively short because of the cumulative effect of the Charisian tech advantage, for instance,

Although the church is putting into production a crude breech loading rifle, it will be no match for either the trapdoor M96 or the magazine fed, bolt action version, because even though it will increase the number of rounds fired by AoG units, it is still inferior in rate of fire, range and ballistic design of the round fired. During WW I the marksman standard firing rate for a regular army British soldier armed with an Enfield bolt action, magazine fed rifle was TWENTY-FOUR aimed shots per minute (the miracle minute). There are any number of German accounts of troops early in the war that swore they had encountered machine guns when they had in fact just run into Enfields in the hands of competent soldiers. Not only will Charisian rifles put out more bullets, they will also shoot them farther and more accurately. Even if the entire Harchongese contingent is armed with the church breech loader, they simply won't have enough bodies to overwhelm the ICA. I say this because by spring the RDA will have increased it's numbers by fifteen more divisions, according to textev, allowing the ICA to be the armored fist of very large formations. Even worse from the church's standpoint, Charis is designing the breech loading rifle to already accept bullets with nitrocellulose propellants, allowing greater range, less fouling and much less smoke.

Charis is at this point in the book producing rifled, breech loading artillery with recoil devices. This artillery will out range anything the church can supply any time in the next two or three years, again because of the tech base that is already in place in the Empire. As the range of these weapons gets even greater, the ICA can implement the non electricity based techniques developed in WW I to compute the range of opposition artillery for counter battery fire like sound ranging, so even after the church gets a cruder form of "angle-gun" that allows indirect fire into service, counter battery fire can wipe it out.

Yes, the church can call upon greater numbers of bodies RIGHT NOW, but I would submit that a Harchongese army, supplied with the Ferguson knock off and the church's artillery and mortars isn't going to fare much better against Charisian weapons and doctrine than pike formations did against early rifles and artillery.

Granted there are a lot of church soldiers. However, Charis is pumping out a LOT of ammunition that can all be delivered on the battlefield faster and more accurately.

I would also be surprised if this war ended in a negotiated peace. How do you negotiate a peace settlement that allows ANY of the top of the church hierarchy to continue to exist outside of a prison? Ducharin and Magwire are complicit in the beginnings of this conflict and have been major contributors to the war effort. They are war criminals, plain and simple and need to stand trial and be punished for their crimes. If you start with that as the basis of conflict resolution, how do you negotiate an "armistice"? IMO this war ends with the Nuremburg trials and executions.

Now RFC can make all of this a long, aimless, massively wrong speculation with a few (relatively speaking) keystrokes. Isn't that great?

Damonby wrote:Hi mistwalker,

]Well, to expand on my earlier answer, I believe it will be relatively short because of the cumulative effect of the Charisian tech advantage, for instance,

I snipped most of your answer not because its not interesting but post are getting to long
While I agree with your general description of the effect of new weapons on the battle field especially in the open field battle ,AoG soon will be or is on the defensive, and ICA will have to get into the range of the defenders weapons, and the crude version the Angle guns are indirect weapons and they won't be visible to the artillery observers, and even the modern artillery don't have pinpoint accuracy at indirect fire, yes they have an advantage but the advantage is not as great as you seem to suggest And AoG artillery is not going to be set up for anty- artillery fire most likely its going to be set up for stopping attackers, we did not see it yet but do you think a human wave attacks are not in works? In the end ICA will be successful no doubt about it but the casualties will be horrendous.

Now RFC can make all of this a long, aimless, massively wrong speculation with a few (relatively speaking) keystrokes. Isn't that great?

that's so true

You were dead on until this paragraph. The rules of war as defined by the CoGA does not make war criminals out of the G4. Based on the experience Safehold had in the War of the Fallen as well as the Succession Wars, harsh actions like The Qustion are legal. The ability to suspend the Rules of War are within the purvue of the CoGA.

This is the accepted interpretation of most Safeholdians. Asserting that the G4 are war criminals just won't get any traction. While the EoC might carry out reprisals on the Inquisition to encourage them to limit their attrocities, that is not to say the Inquisition doesn't have the legal authority to engage in those attrocities and call it just punishment. Sure, the CoC has rejected the Book of Scheuler, but that's part of their percieved heresy.

Stipulating that any negotiated peace involves the G4 being declared war criminals will be seen as absolutely unreasonable by Allied civilians and Mainlanders alike. Clyntahn as war criminal might pass muster. The entire G4? Not likely.

Damonby wrote:Hi mistwalker,

snip
I would also be surprised if this war ended in a negotiated peace. How do you negotiate a peace settlement that allows ANY of the top of the church hierarchy to continue to exist outside of a prison? Ducharin and Magwire are complicit in the beginnings of this conflict and have been major contributors to the war effort. They are war criminals, plain and simple and need to stand trial and be punished for their crimes. If you start with that as the basis of conflict resolution, how do you negotiate an "armistice"? IMO this war ends with the Nuremburg trials and executions.

Now RFC can make all of this a long, aimless, massively wrong speculation with a few (relatively speaking) keystrokes. Isn't that great?

Hi PeterZ,

Always keeping in mind that this IS RFC's playground, I see the outcome my way for a number reasons-

Clyntahn has killed off as much of the moderate, reforming parts of the upper clergy as he could accuse, eliminating anyone who could or would disagree with him.

The upper clergy that is left in Zion are those that Clyntahn owns outright and/or controls through fear and coercion.

Aviah has been busy killing off some of the dregs that are left and the response of Merlin etal has been "Well, OK."

If the upper clergy that are left are that worthy of death, who gets to lead this new, less powerful church?

That leaves Duchairn and Magwire (sp) as potential leaders. They were both in the meeting where "Let's put Charis to the fire and sword" was put forward and both acquiesced to that idea. Are they to be spared now that one of them has shown a little conscience and the other some competence?

IMHO these two guys aren't Albert Speer surrogates, they are participants of the Wannsee Conference.

Of course, this statement flies in the face of Godwin's Law, but it is fiction after all.

Edit: Sorry, miswrote, it doesn't fly in the face of it, it IS Godwin's Law.

PeterZ wrote:You were dead on until this paragraph. The rules of war as defined by the CoGA does not make war criminals out of the G4. Based on the experience Safehold had in the War of the Fallen as well as the Succession Wars, harsh actions like The Qustion are legal. The ability to suspend the Rules of War are within the purvue of the CoGA.

This is the accepted interpretation of most Safeholdians. Asserting that the G4 are war criminals just won't get any traction. While the EoC might carry out reprisals on the Inquisition to encourage them to limit their attrocities, that is not to say the Inquisition doesn't have the legal authority to engage in those attrocities and call it just punishment. Sure, the CoC has rejected the Book of Scheuler, but that's part of their percieved heresy.

Stipulating that any negotiated peace involves the G4 being declared war criminals will be seen as absolutely unreasonable by Allied civilians and Mainlanders alike. Clyntahn as war criminal might pass muster. The entire G4? Not likely.

Damonby wrote:Hi mistwalker,

snip
I would also be surprised if this war ended in a negotiated peace. How do you negotiate a peace settlement that allows ANY of the top of the church hierarchy to continue to exist outside of a prison? Ducharin and Magwire are complicit in the beginnings of this conflict and have been major contributors to the war effort. They are war criminals, plain and simple and need to stand trial and be punished for their crimes. If you start with that as the basis of conflict resolution, how do you negotiate an "armistice"? IMO this war ends with the Nuremburg trials and executions.

Now RFC can make all of this a long, aimless, massively wrong speculation with a few (relatively speaking) keystrokes. Isn't that great?

PeterZ wrote:snip

As I posted before, the Inquisition might be defanged slightly. They would lose their broad powers to compel obedience, but retain their authority to define what is or isn't in compliance with the Proscriptions. If the CoGA keeps its fingers in how innovations are developed, they can maitain some control of the other CoGA nations and also develop a lucrative alternative revenue source.
SNIP

To which members of the Inquisition does S n C's proclamatiion concerning the fate of captured Inquisitors appply? If it only applies to priests serving with military units any truce should see a large number of the bastards still serving Mother Church. If it applies to all members of the Inquisition, any truce terms should include turning over all members of the Inquisition to the EOC and it's allies for execution.

Hello Damonby,

Your historical reference to the Nuremberg trial should bear in mind that the same people who decided to hold those trials against the Nazis also decided that the Emperor of Japan had been a figurehead that had nothing at all to do with Japanese expansion into China and Pearl Harbor.

Applied to Safehold, Cayled and Sharleyan will proclaim that Duchairn and Maigwair were ignorant Hiro Hitos victims of Clyntahn's evil intentions if it is politically convenient.

Damonby wrote:That leaves Duchairn and Magwire (sp) as potential leaders. They were both in the meeting where "Let's put Charis to the fire and sword" was put forward and both acquiesced to that idea. Are they to be spared now that one of them has shown a little conscience and the other some competence?

IMHO these two guys aren't Albert Speer surrogates, they are participants of the Wannsee Conference.

EdThomas wrote:

PeterZ wrote:snip

As I posted before, the Inquisition might be defanged slightly. They would lose their broad powers to compel obedience, but retain their authority to define what is or isn't in compliance with the Proscriptions. If the CoGA keeps its fingers in how innovations are developed, they can maitain some control of the other CoGA nations and also develop a lucrative alternative revenue source.
SNIP

To which members of the Inquisition does S n C's proclamatiion concerning the fate of captured Inquisitors appply? If it only applies to priests serving with military units any truce should see a large number of the bastards still serving Mother Church. If it applies to all members of the Inquisition, any truce terms should include turning over all members of the Inquisition to the EOC and it's allies for execution.

Until the war is over any inquisitor's life is forfiet. Period. Once the war is won, does the witch hunt for inquisitors continue? I think not. Same goes for a truce. Of course as a concession Charis will demand the defanging I mentioned.

Requiring reparations that may include punishment for the leaders of the CoGA is one thing. Requiring the execution of those leaders is quite something else. Mind you I agree with you. I further suspect that Duchairn would also agree with you. What I don't see is the majority of Safeholdians agreeing with you.

If they firmly believe that such a condition is unjust and serves evil, what sort of peace will result from gaining that condition? Compare that to what Charis required of Corisande. Did Charis offer justice, vengence or grace? I submit that Charis offered grace when their conquored enemy expected vengence. The result was a more positive outcome than if either other option was used.

Clyntahn deserves vengence, the inquisitors deserve justice and the remaining mainlanders will benefit Charis (and humanity's fight against the Gbaba) if they recieve grace.

Damonby wrote:Hi PeterZ,

Always keeping in mind that this IS RFC's playground, I see the outcome my way for a number reasons-

Clyntahn has killed off as much of the moderate, reforming parts of the upper clergy as he could accuse, eliminating anyone who could or would disagree with him.

The upper clergy that is left in Zion are those that Clyntahn owns outright and/or controls through fear and coercion.

Aviah has been busy killing off some of the dregs that are left and the response of Merlin etal has been "Well, OK."

If the upper clergy that are left are that worthy of death, who gets to lead this new, less powerful church?

That leaves Duchairn and Magwire (sp) as potential leaders. They were both in the meeting where "Let's put Charis to the fire and sword" was put forward and both acquiesced to that idea. Are they to be spared now that one of them has shown a little conscience and the other some competence?

IMHO these two guys aren't Albert Speer surrogates, they are participants of the Wannsee Conference.

Of course, this statement flies in the face of Godwin's Law, but it is fiction after all.

Edit: Sorry, miswrote, it doesn't fly in the face of it, it IS Godwin's Law.