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Future weapons based on LAMA small SPOILER.

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Future weapons based on LAMA small SPOILER.
Post by mistwalker   » Wed Feb 26, 2014 11:17 am

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With the introduction of metallic cartridge and the smokeless powder the invention field of future firearms is wide open but I was wondering would be a practical for Charisian Empire?

I think going from the current rifle ( still BP design ) to something like AK is not practical during this conflict, they are missing a few steps between.
They just started to produce M96 and revolvers and from cost and time point of view stopping that production lines and designing and building a new ones is just not practical.

From the description M96 remind me of Lee-Meatford rifle, but I wonder if that's correct.

One thing that stands out for me that there is no combat shotguns, now when the warfare is moving in the direction of trench fighting this type weapon would be better than the revolver. It would be great for the boarding actions of the marines also.

I wonder if with the introduction of the metallic cartridge we will see a magazine fed pistol soon? Or again that would be impractical at this stage due to cost and time when they just re-equipped the troops with the revolvers.

There is only one weapon I think should be introduced and that is a machine gun. Because they are squad weapons not individual one, one production line could be set up to producing one and the advantages are obvious. As to the design of the weapon, with the Owl's help better designs that Maxim or Gatling gun are possible, two that come to mind are M1919 Browning design or MG42 design and using the same ammunition that rifle you don't even have to produce different caliber of ammo. My favourite would be MG42 due to the ratio of fire and weight advantage but I don't know if that would be possible without being accused by inquisition of Shan-wei influence. What do you think?
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Re: Future weapons based on LAMA small SPOILER.
Post by Duckk   » Wed Feb 26, 2014 11:29 am

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IMO, I think it's a bit early to see gas or recoil powered automatic weapons. While Charis has (or very shortly will get) the needed precision to machine the parts for a automatic weapon, conceptually I think they need a bit more time to prepare. A modern (-ish) machine gun design is too big a leap; they probably need at least one more development in weapons to make it seem like a natural evolution in tech. I think they're more likely to adopt a mechanically powered rapid fire weapon like a mitrailleuse or gatling gun.
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Re: Future weapons based on LAMA small SPOILER.
Post by Damonby   » Wed Feb 26, 2014 11:42 am

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I don't believe this war is going to last long enough for machine guns to be developed. I also don't believe that they would be necessary.

If you look at the relative tech advantages that Charis has, it is hard for me to imagine that WW I style trench war stalemates are going to happen.

Why? Because both sides in WW I had relatively the same tech advancement in small arms and artillery, making it impossible for either side to dominate the battlefield for a long enough period of time to end trench warfare. Charis already has a large and widening head start in metallurgy and tech, in things like mortar production, recoil systems for artillery, metals capable of withstanding the bore pressures and stresses needed for rifled breech loading small arms and artillery, etc.

When a dug in AoG formation meets an ICA assault, they will have to contend with no artillery support (it having been eliminated by the superior firepower and range of ICA artillery) and be forced to keep their heads down in their trenches because of mortar fire and the fire of breech loading, magazine fed, bolt action rifles that in the latter stages of the war will be using ammo with smokeless powder.

This is such a complete disparity that IT WON'T MATTER if the AoG is dug in. Once any breach is created in an AoG trench, the whole thing gets rolled up. The AoG is not going to have machine guns to use to protect those trenches. They have so far to go to get to that stage that the war is already going to be over.

Please accept this as a gigantic IMO.
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Re: Future weapons based on LAMA small SPOILER.
Post by PeterZ   » Wed Feb 26, 2014 12:32 pm

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Damonby wrote:I don't believe this war is going to last long enough for machine guns to be developed. I also don't believe that they would be necessary.

snip
This is such a complete disparity that IT WON'T MATTER if the AoG is dug in. Once any breach is created in an AoG trench, the whole thing gets rolled up. The AoG is not going to have machine guns to use to protect those trenches. They have so far to go to get to that stage that the war is already going to be over.

Please accept this as a gigantic IMO.


Totally agree with you. As soon as Duchairn and Magwair realize this, they will offer to negotiate. Magwair in the hopes that negotiations will lead to more parity in the military capabilities. Duchairn in the true hopes of an equitible resolution. That offer will come upon Clyntahn's removal of course.

As I posted before, the Inquisition might be defanged slightly. They would lose their broad powers to compel obedience, but retain their authority to define what is or isn't in compliance with the Proscriptions. If the CoGA keeps its fingers in how innovations are developed, they can maitain some control of the other CoGA nations and also develop a lucrative alternative revenue source.

If that is the state of affairs for the 2 decades leading into the Return, the next story arc will be very interesting indeed. 2 decades of cold war would do wonders for technological development, especially if the OBS is knocked out at the end of this war.
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Re: Future weapons based on LAMA small SPOILER.
Post by mistwalker   » Wed Feb 26, 2014 12:50 pm

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Duckk wrote:IMO, I think it's a bit early to see gas or recoil powered automatic weapons. While Charis has (or very shortly will get) the needed precision to machine the parts for a automatic weapon, conceptually I think they need a bit more time to prepare. A modern (-ish) machine gun design is too big a leap; they probably need at least one more development in weapons to make it seem like a natural evolution in tech. I think they're more likely to adopt a mechanically powered rapid fire weapon like a mitrailleuse or gatling gun.


That's what I am thinking too :) but I was wondering if it was just my wishful thinking or I was on the "correct path" and other people were coming to that conclusion to
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Re: Future weapons based on LAMA small SPOILER.
Post by Henry Brown   » Wed Feb 26, 2014 1:06 pm

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Once they get smokeless powder and some form of high explosive, a single shot grenade launcher (along the lines of the M-79) to provide additional firepower at either the platoon or company level might be a useful addition. Charis also might consider something along the lines of the Katyusha rocket launcher to augment their artillery.
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Re: Future weapons based on LAMA small SPOILER.
Post by mistwalker   » Wed Feb 26, 2014 1:19 pm

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"Damonby"]
I don't believe this war is going to last long enough for machine guns to be developed. I also don't believe that they would be necessary.


Why not? Its not going to stop at the borders of the Republic. As long as the Grand inquisitor is alive he is going to push it no matter what's the setbacks. Harchong army is huge and armed with new rifles thy are still a thread which need to be addressed.


If you look at the relative tech advantages that Charis has, it is hard for me to imagine that WW I style trench war stalemates are going to happen.


Well AOG has no chances in the field battles so their only chance would be a trench fortifications. And the Harchong and Temple Lands still have huge population advantage. Quantity has its own quality.




]When a dug in AoG formation meets an ICA assault, they will have to contend with no artillery support (it having been eliminated by the superior firepower and range of ICA artillery) and be forced to keep their heads down in their trenches because of mortar fire and the fire of breech loading, magazine fed, bolt action rifles that in the latter stages of the war will be using ammo with smokeless powder.



why not? we have textev that AOG is developing new type of artillery and mortars and they have "angle-guns" they are not as good as ICA pieces but they still do the job. And while Direct fire artillery is ease to spot "angle guns and the mortars are different fish of cattle. during the WW2 Russians like to use artillery barrage when attacking German lines and you would be surprised how many German positions and artillery were still left intact.



This is such a complete disparity that IT WON'T MATTER if the AoG is dug in. Once any breach is created in an AoG trench, the whole thing gets rolled up. The AoG is not going to have machine guns to use to protect those trenches. They have so far to go to get to that stage that the war is already going to be over.

Please accept this as a gigantic IMO.


Sorry, I don't think it will be as easy as you like to suggest. AoG have the numbers to take and absorb the casualties and still be an effective force, and they know what to expect so you wont surprise them with "new" type of warfare. So unless Grand inquisitor is taken out of the picture this doesn't looks like it can be a long conflict :)
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Re: Future weapons based on LAMA small SPOILER.
Post by mistwalker   » Wed Feb 26, 2014 1:32 pm

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Totally agree with you. As soon as Duchairn and Magwair realize this, they will offer to negotiate. Magwair in the hopes that negotiations will lead to more parity in the military capabilities. Duchairn in the true hopes of an equitible resolution.


But that depends if they are able to do it.



That offer will come upon Clyntahn's removal of course.

Big if , if he can be removed, and it has to be done internally, not externally so you wont make him a martyr.
At this point the AoG suffered setbacks but they are not big enough yet to even make an attempt.
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Re: Future weapons based on LAMA small SPOILER.
Post by PeterZ   » Wed Feb 26, 2014 1:49 pm

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PeterZ wrote:Totally agree with you. As soon as Duchairn and Magwair realize this, they will offer to negotiate. Magwair in the hopes that negotiations will lead to more parity in the military capabilities. Duchairn in the true hopes of an equitible resolution.

mistwalker wrote:But that depends if they are able to do it.

PeterZ wrote: That offer will come upon Clyntahn's removal of course.

mistwalker wrote:Big if , if he can be removed, and it has to be done internally, not externally so you wont make him a martyr.
At this point the AoG suffered setbacks but they are not big enough yet to even make an attempt.


Not that big an "if" at all. If this story arc is to be completed in the next book or two, Clyntahn has to die. So long as he lives, we can't skip forward as RFC suggests we will. The options will be either a complete and total Allied victory resulting in Clyntahn's death or Clyntahn dead and the CoGA negotiates a truce before their total defeat.

Clyntahn will die in the near term. He either dies at Rohbair's hands or after the ICA captures Zion.

Given the progression of weapons being developed by Charis, pretty soon writing about this conflict will be military porn. Booooring! RFC is anything but boring. The CoGA needs some time to try and catch up and Magwair knows it. Cold war here we come!
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Re: Future weapons based on LAMA small SPOILER.
Post by chrisd   » Wed Feb 26, 2014 2:01 pm

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Of course, once the metallic cartridge is established in rifle sizes it is then a short technical step to the "Soixante-Quinze" and the Ordnance QF 25-pounder.
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