BB(P/C) for rear area security

Duckk wrote:Well, for one, you would never have a waller sitting in the middle of nowhere completely and utterly alone. The whole point of a waller is to operate as part of the wall, which means multiple wallers to form said wall, plus the many escorts to expand the sensor and missile defense envelopes. A single capital ship just chilling by its lonesome isn't anything except an invitation to get destroyed in detail. Hence the use of either entire squadrons/task groups/task forces to defend a system if it's worth defending against serious attack, or battlecruisers and below if its not. Half assing it with just one capital ship isn't a much of a defense at all.

The same principle applies to the use of LACs. Throwing them around in pairs is hardly using them effectively, as all such small collections of them can hope to accomplish is beat off a few destroyers or maybe even a whole heavy cruiser. A battleship-sized platform can deploy enough recon drones to remove any possible patrol roles for LACs and would have sufficient Loreleis or pocket Keyholes of its own to provide better missile defense.

Aren't we forgetting something here?
For all they lost in 2nd Manticore, Haven as a ****load of ships of all sizes and have been continuing to build them at multiple locations (including Bolthole) right now. While not quite as effective as RMN/GSN ships, the RHN’s most recent generations of ships are just as much an overmatch against SLN (either BF or FF) ships and the SDFs of SL on a one-to-one or more basis as RMN.
Haven’s existing rear area forces don’t have to defend against RMN/GSN forces now so THEORETICALLY Haven could do a redeployment of forces on rear area commitments and shift those ships to the assistance of systems going “neutral” or leaving OFS.
So far the discussion from the SLN command has been talking about potential raiding in Manticore controlled areas- Manticore, not GA and specifically NOT Haven. For the majority of anything presently controlled by Haven, the SL has to go THROUGH OR AROUND Manticore controlled space. And the SL isn’t going to be able to use the Manticore Wormhole Junction nor any of the Lacoon II occupied wormhole bridges to help them get anywhere.
This does bring up the very real need for tactical, strategic and political conversation within SEM about the short and long term wisdom and potential problems of using Haven squadrons, task forces and groups to “assist” systems or even provide the force/presence for “liberation” of SL (or Protectorate etc) systems vs. the use of RMN forces. It is the POLITICAL calculations that make my head spin. The military ones are really straight forward. A mixed squadron of RHN hyper-capable ships is going to be devastating to most SLN forces from up to “a bit more” that 2x the nominal capability and certainly have more than 2x the range on them. SLN wants to send available less-than-waller forces against a range of systems defended by Haven BC divisions with screens----good luck with that! Even if the Haven ships get pushed out of the systems (and they aren’t expected to make a Saganami stand) the SLN is going to get shredded. Even if SLN decides (or forced to if it wants to continue send out attacking forces) start sending a couple of wallers in these raids (lack of lighter ships, ability to actually accomplish anything ageist defending forces) they will start losing wallers or at least taking serious damage up through mission kill on said forces and bleed capability.
Not going to help the SLs position much and will hurry the breakdown.

Brigade XO wrote:Aren't we forgetting something here?
For all they lost in 2nd Manticore, Haven as a ****load of ships of all sizes and have been continuing to build them at multiple locations (including Bolthole) right now. While not quite as effective as RMN/GSN ships, the RHN’s most recent generations of ships are just as much an overmatch against SLN (either BF or FF) ships and the SDFs of SL on a one-to-one or more basis as RMN.

We're not, but I think Positroll might be.

Duckk wrote: Well, for one, you would never have a waller sitting in the middle of nowhere completely and utterly alone. The whole point of a waller is to operate as part of the wall, which means multiple wallers to form said wall, plus the many escorts to expand the sensor and missile defense envelopes. A single capital ship just chilling by its lonesome isn't anything except an invitation to get destroyed in detail. Hence the use of either entire squadrons/task groups/task forces to defend a system if it's worth defending against serious attack, or battlecruisers and below if its not. Half assing it with just one capital ship isn't a much of a defense at all.

Ummmmm...HMS Samothrace?

Yeah, I know, that was a special condition and it was more a static centerpiece, but still....

Brigade XO wrote:Aren't we forgetting something here?
For all they lost in 2nd Manticore, Haven as a ****load of ships of all sizes and have been continuing to build them at multiple locations (including Bolthole) right now. While not quite as effective as RMN/GSN ships, the RHN’s most recent generations of ships are just as much an overmatch against SLN (either BF or FF) ships and the SDFs of SL on a one-to-one or more basis as RMN.
[snip]
The military ones are really straight forward. A mixed squadron of RHN hyper-capable ships is going to be devastating to most SLN forces from up to “a bit more” that 2x the nominal capability and certainly have more than 2x the range on them. SLN wants to send available less-than-waller forces against a range of systems defended by Haven BC divisions with screens----good luck with that! Even if the Haven ships get pushed out of the systems (and they aren’t expected to make a Saganami stand) the SLN is going to get shredded. Even if SLN decides (or forced to if it wants to continue send out attacking forces) start sending a couple of wallers in these raids (lack of lighter ships, ability to actually accomplish anything ageist defending forces) they will start losing wallers or at least taking serious damage up through mission kill on said forces and bleed capability.
Not going to help the SLs position much and will hurry the breakdown.

We haven't seen massive improvements in Havenite sub-wallers. As far as we know they haven't deployed a BC(P) design, or any dual/multi-drive missiles in anything smaller than as SD(P).

That actually means that, while the Havenite BCs have much much tougher missile defense, FF BCs carrying cataphracts would actually outrange the onboard missiles of any RHN ship smaller than an SD(P)

Now if the DD - BC SLN units don't have cataphracts, then the RHN DD - BC should have a slight range advantage; but not as much as a LERM/ERM equipped Manticoran ship much less a DDM equipped one.



Of course, this could be somewhat mitigated by shipping in pods for the defending RHN ships to tow; the missiles in those would vastly outrange anything the SLN carries.


I agree that Haven can afford to reallocate significant resources away from system defense; I'd just be careful deploying their smaller ships since those are the classes the SLN can come closest to matching. (If you can help it never give a sucker a fair fight)

Let us review the premise one more time. The idea is that you need a BB in order to provide security for rear area systems and breakaway systems from raiding SLN battlecruisers. Here is the problem:

1) If you are dealing with unupgraded BCs with no extended range capability, then you do not need BBs. Just about anything would do - older combatants with pods limpeted; any of the existing inventory of CA(L)s, BC(P)s, or BC(L)s; or Moriarty - and do it cheaper and as good as a BB. And in a less than optimal but still acceptable solution, you could send large LAC strikes in from in-system bases. (That is, after all, the whole reason of the LAC program in the first place: cheap and expendable but still quite potent firepower that supplements and in some cases replaces the hyper capable combatants.) A BB would be a gross misapplication of force, much like using a twenty pount sledgehammer to drive a plain old wood nail when a claw hammer would do.

2) If you are afraid of BCs with extended range capability, deployed either via a crude BC(P) design or ammunition colliers, then you use the more capable Agamemnons or the Nikes, both of which have the antimissile defenses to take modest sized pod salvos. Since you said you are settling for good enough defenses, that is all you really need. And in the case of the Nike, comes with the added kicker that they are more likely to be useful down the line as tactics and technology evolve. That is unlike the battleship, which was considered obsolete even before the wars started by both factions.

3) If you are dealing with someone whose extended range capability is superior to your own, you could invest in BBs in an attempt to offset the qualitative superiority. It would be an ultimately futile endeavor, however, because the SLN would be winning anyways. Besides, the Alliance is aware of just how far behind the League is starting from, and is facing huge hurdles of just matching the Alliance's sophistication in missile technology and how to employ it.

Hutch wrote:

Duckk wrote: Well, for one, you would never have a waller sitting in the middle of nowhere completely and utterly alone. The whole point of a waller is to operate as part of the wall, which means multiple wallers to form said wall, plus the many escorts to expand the sensor and missile defense envelopes. A single capital ship just chilling by its lonesome isn't anything except an invitation to get destroyed in detail. Hence the use of either entire squadrons/task groups/task forces to defend a system if it's worth defending against serious attack, or battlecruisers and below if its not. Half assing it with just one capital ship isn't a much of a defense at all.

Ummmmm...HMS Samothrace?

Yeah, I know, that was a special condition and it was more a static centerpiece, but still....

Samothrace wasn't really deployed as a waller. It was deployed more as a show-piece ("see, we have wallers, which we will send to protect you - we might consider this an old junker not useful for fighting the biggest war anyone has ever fought, but it can still take every warship and pirate in the Sector") than with the expectation it would have to fight. You might recall it didn't even get involved in the Battle of Spindle? (A fact of which the League is probably unaware, if Manticore didn't mention it - and might not believe, even if mentioned.)

So, yes, sometimes, rarely, you deploy individual wallers in places - but not if you expect to have a fight that requires a waller, only to remind people that you have a wall of battle. (White elephants don't apply here, since Manticore has a real wall of battle.)

Edited for spelling.

Haven has CLACs, LACs of modern (Haven Quadrant) capasity if not up to Manticore level and it has A LOT of DD through BC sized ships with commanders and crews with current active warfare expereince. That is both fighting the former SS and PRH sector Govenor's forces to recover Haven systems from the fragments of the old regime AND the survivors of the warfare with Manticore.
Not a lot of the SLN ships have Cataphracts. For the most part those seem to have been special ammunition deployments to units being sent (effectivly by the Alignment) against Manticore BUT they are not either generaly available (if really at all available in more than token numbers) in pods or that there are SLN ships with the missile tubes (and handling eqipment) to handle them.
Haven has much better sensor and weapons tactical control capabilites than the SLN. Haven also has MUCH BETTER missile defence capacity and capabilites AND EXPERIENCE than the SLN. There is the not-insignifcant piece that Manticore is probably sharing ALL the information (right down to the software and samples, manuals, observed operating procuders plus tactical data) on the up-to-most-current- SLN defense systems and countermeasures. RHN ships are going to be orders of magnitude better on defense against SLN ships AND on defeating SLN defense hardware and ECM.
Then there is the big problem that Haven has MUCH BETTER recon drones than SLN. If you put ONE Manticore CA or BC with an augmented number of Ghost Rider recon drones it is going to shread the an SLN forces ability to defend against RNH missile attack as Ghost Rider can feed the targeting data back for tactical application with the RHN missiles.
While the RHN will do less well against SLN than RMN, SLN is still going to get hammered by RNH while not being able to respond in kind. The net result is that SLN and the League is going to bleed ships & crews plus be mostly ineffective in either blunting GA strikes or taking the fight- successfully in terms of taking and holding system (or amount of serioius infrastructure damage it can inflict) than the GA can do.

While the RHN will do less well against SLN than RMN, SLN is still going to get hammered by RNH while not being able to respond in kind.

Yup, and i´m seriously looking forward to reading the SLN conversation when they REALISE that.

Tenshinai wrote:

While the RHN will do less well against SLN than RMN, SLN is still going to get hammered by RNH while not being able to respond in kind.

Yup, and i´m seriously looking forward to reading the SLN conversation when they REALISE that.

It's so ironic that Haven is probably getting extremely detailed SLN tech info... and has absolutely no R&D use for it.