Upcoming Ops (SPOILER)

I like the suggestions I am hearing here. One thing I
l would like to add is to note the time constraints Charis is facing. Charis does need to be in control of the temple before whatever is underneath it wakes up and the archangels return.


Don

What if Charis doesn't? What if Duchairn manages to off Clyntahn and offers Charis everything they have fought this Jihad for? Can Charis refuse and continue fighting? I think not.

If that happens, then we might move into a Cold War scenario. Cold wars are not altogether bad for developing new tech. As far as the Awakening goes, just get Father Paityr into the Temple. Shouldn't be difficult to negotiate access as part of the broader deal.

n7axw wrote:I like the suggestions I am hearing here. One thing I
l would like to add is to note the time constraints Charis is facing. Charis does need to be in control of the temple before whatever is underneath it wakes up and the archangels return.


Don

One thing to note is that there are several Chekhov's Guns sitting around still. For example, the assault shuttle and the gear for an entire Marine assault company that's sitting in the Cave... I wonder if that is ever going to come down off the wall, it's been sitting there since OAR after all.

PeterZ wrote:What if Charis doesn't? What if Duchairn manages to off Clyntahn and offers Charis everything they have fought this Jihad for? Can Charis refuse and continue fighting? I think not.

If that happens, then we might move into a Cold War scenario. Cold wars are not altogether bad for developing new tech. As far as the Awakening goes, just get Father Paityr into the Temple. Shouldn't be difficult to negotiate access as part of the broader deal.

n7axw wrote:I like the suggestions I am hearing here. One thing I
l would like to add is to note the time constraints Charis is facing. Charis does need to be in control of the temple before whatever is underneath it wakes up and the archangels return.


Don

What if Charis preemptively offers terms? IMO there are three provisions that could give Charis pretty much everything it wants:
1. Cessation of hostilities by all parties and a proclamation that the jihad is ended.
2. The jihad was driven by a corrupt Inquisition. The Inquisition is therefore dissolved and ALL members will perform appropriate penance and are forbidden to ever again perform Inquisitorial duties in any capacity.
3. While the Church may have fragmented, all faiths recognize the Temple as God's seat. Therefore pilgrims of all faiths will be welcome and free to worship as they see fit, excepting that they may not impose their faith on others.

Provision 1 ends the war. Lots of bitterness, but a lot less dying.
Provision 2: The Council of Vicars can basically say 'We were mislead by an Inquisition that had fallen under the sway of Shan-Wei.' It's face-saving BS of course, but!
- It gets the CoGA out of a war it can't win while providing a scapegoat that's actually guilty.
- It isolates the Inquisition from the rest of the Faithful.
- A reformed Inquisition may eventually arise, but it will never be able to crack the whip like the old one.
Provision 3: Basically this is like bringing just a few termites into the house. What harm could it do?

Timing would be critical, of course. They'd have to do it when the Temple forces are clearly losing anyway, but before Clyntahn is removed. Of course he'll go into one of his screaming rages (he should really think about decorating with replicas instead of original artwork), '...we'll surrender to those fornicating heretics over my dead body!!' etc. But as things degenerate and the Inquisition gets more vicious, more people will probably be OK with that.

By moving first, Charis could retain control of how the war ends. They can set terms that everyone can live with while the Inner Circle still gets what it needs.

jms

Gunny wrote:First you have to develop contained in one piece ammunition, which has been thought of but not yet available before LaMA. Not having the book yet, I don't know how this progressed.

Gatlings and other hand cranked guns were available in very limited quantities in the Civil War, but machine guns that really worked had to wait for smokeless powder, which again is being thought of with the accidental discovery of gun cotton.

1. Black powder leaves an awful lot of crud in the barrel and gums up the works. Hand cranked guns pull the cartridge case out of the barrel fairly slowly. A machine gun yanks it out so quickly that a lot of crud would be left in the chamber.

2. Gun cotton burns too fast, so the necessary next step is to treat it with various alcohols.

3. Smokeless powder puts out about three times the energy of black powder and you really need this to operate a machine gun.

Poudre B (for powder blanc -- Blanc is French for white so "white powder" to distract the German spies) came into being some 35 years after gun cotton. Then again with Merlin to make a few suggestions, who knows?

You certainly need smokeless powder for any kind of gas operated machine gun. However, it IS possible to have a recoil operated design work on BP. The prime example is the Maxim Gun. Hiram Maxim developed and patented the Maxim gun in 1884, 2 full years before the first smokeless powder, Poudre B was introduced by the French in 1886. The initial design of the gun was developed with BP cartridges and he conducted successful demonstration firings for potential clients throughout Europe using BP rounds in 1884 and 1885.

Henry Brown wrote:

Gunny wrote:First you have to develop contained in one piece ammunition, which has been thought of but not yet available before LaMA. Not having the book yet, I don't know how this progressed.

Gatlings and other hand cranked guns were available in very limited quantities in the Civil War, but machine guns that really worked had to wait for smokeless powder, which again is being thought of with the accidental discovery of gun cotton.

1. Black powder leaves an awful lot of crud in the barrel and gums up the works. Hand cranked guns pull the cartridge case out of the barrel fairly slowly. A machine gun yanks it out so quickly that a lot of crud would be left in the chamber.

2. Gun cotton burns too fast, so the necessary next step is to treat it with various alcohols.

3. Smokeless powder puts out about three times the energy of black powder and you really need this to operate a machine gun.

Poudre B (for powder blanc -- Blanc is French for white so "white powder" to distract the German spies) came into being some 35 years after gun cotton. Then again with Merlin to make a few suggestions, who knows?

You certainly need smokeless powder for any kind of gas operated machine gun. However, it IS possible to have a recoil operated design work on BP. The prime example is the Maxim Gun. Hiram Maxim developed and patented the Maxim gun in 1884, 2 full years before the first smokeless powder, Poudre B was introduced by the French in 1886. The initial design of the gun was developed with BP cartridges and he conducted successful demonstration firings for potential clients throughout Europe using BP rounds in 1884 and 1885.

I'd settle for a gardner gun, myself.

For those wanting to compare early hand cranked "machine guns":

pokermind wrote:Since we are discussing early crank operated Machine guns you may wish to know the types I'll start with my favorite:

1) The Gardner although the least produced was probably the best. This short video shows its operation:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v-x7B-pj3_o

The Gardner influenced the first fully automatic Machine gun the Maxim that's operation is in short video below:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P1SbcZQ0N5A

2) The Gatling Gun is much more complex three times the firing mechanisms as the Gardner and cylindrical curves to machine. The following short video shows the operation of the Gatling gun:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZoMe8hV6uFM

3) Similar looking to a Gatling but with a different mechanism is the Hotchkiss 37 MM automatic cannon. This short video shows its operation:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GkOP8Lwdmgg

4) Heavy and cumbersome is the Reffy Mitrailleuse of 1867. This short video shows its operation:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jO3haWrRtrY&feature=related

My most prolific gunsmith buddy has made a Gardner and a Gatling, he curses making a Gatling due to the difficulty of machining the slots inside a cylinder to operate the mechanism. The Gardner is a simple to machine cam system.

Poker

jmseeley wrote:What if Charis preemptively offers terms? IMO there are three provisions that could give Charis pretty much everything it wants:
1. Cessation of hostilities by all parties and a proclamation that the jihad is ended.
2. The jihad was driven by a corrupt Inquisition. The Inquisition is therefore dissolved and ALL members will perform appropriate penance and are forbidden to ever again perform Inquisitorial duties in any capacity.
3. While the Church may have fragmented, all faiths recognize the Temple as God's seat. Therefore pilgrims of all faiths will be welcome and free to worship as they see fit, excepting that they may not impose their faith on others.

Provision 1 ends the war. Lots of bitterness, but a lot less dying.
Provision 2: The Council of Vicars can basically say 'We were mislead by an Inquisition that had fallen under the sway of Shan-Wei.' It's face-saving BS of course, but!
- It gets the CoGA out of a war it can't win while providing a scapegoat that's actually guilty.
- It isolates the Inquisition from the rest of the Faithful.
- A reformed Inquisition may eventually arise, but it will never be able to crack the whip like the old one.
Provision 3: Basically this is like bringing just a few termites into the house. What harm could it do?

Timing would be critical, of course. They'd have to do it when the Temple forces are clearly losing anyway, but before Clyntahn is removed. Of course he'll go into one of his screaming rages (he should really think about decorating with replicas instead of original artwork), '...we'll surrender to those fornicating heretics over my dead body!!' etc. But as things degenerate and the Inquisition gets more vicious, more people will probably be OK with that.

By moving first, Charis could retain control of how the war ends. They can set terms that everyone can live with while the Inner Circle still gets what it needs.

jms

The primary problem with Charis offering terms is that they never wanted to fight to begin with. Any terms they offered would have to be accepted by the CoGA. Not going to happen until Clyntahn dies.

Even after Rohbair sends Clyntahn to dance at the end of a rope, Charis offering to cease fire would be seen as a sign of weakness. The CoGA has to admit defeat or at least the likelyhood of defeat to itself before any permanent peace might be achieved. Once they come to that realization they would offer to negotiate a peace. Charis offering to negotiate a peace before the CoGA is ready will likely extend the hostilities.

PeterZ wrote:

jmseeley wrote:What if Charis preemptively offers terms? IMO there are three provisions that could give Charis pretty much everything it wants:
1. Cessation of hostilities by all parties and a proclamation that the jihad is ended.
2. The jihad was driven by a corrupt Inquisition. The Inquisition is therefore dissolved and ALL members will perform appropriate penance and are forbidden to ever again perform Inquisitorial duties in any capacity.
3. While the Church may have fragmented, all faiths recognize the Temple as God's seat. Therefore pilgrims of all faiths will be welcome and free to worship as they see fit, excepting that they may not impose their faith on others.

Provision 1 ends the war. Lots of bitterness, but a lot less dying.
Provision 2: The Council of Vicars can basically say 'We were mislead by an Inquisition that had fallen under the sway of Shan-Wei.' It's face-saving BS of course, but!
- It gets the CoGA out of a war it can't win while providing a scapegoat that's actually guilty.
- It isolates the Inquisition from the rest of the Faithful.
- A reformed Inquisition may eventually arise, but it will never be able to crack the whip like the old one.
Provision 3: Basically this is like bringing just a few termites into the house. What harm could it do?

Timing would be critical, of course. They'd have to do it when the Temple forces are clearly losing anyway, but before Clyntahn is removed. Of course he'll go into one of his screaming rages (he should really think about decorating with replicas instead of original artwork), '...we'll surrender to those fornicating heretics over my dead body!!' etc. But as things degenerate and the Inquisition gets more vicious, more people will probably be OK with that.

By moving first, Charis could retain control of how the war ends. They can set terms that everyone can live with while the Inner Circle still gets what it needs.

jms

The primary problem with Charis offering terms is that they never wanted to fight to begin with. Any terms they offered would have to be accepted by the CoGA. Not going to happen until Clyntahn dies.

Even after Rohbair sends Clyntahn to dance at the end of a rope, Charis offering to cease fire would be seen as a sign of weakness. The CoGA has to admit defeat or at least the likelyhood of defeat to itself before any permanent peace might be achieved. Once they come to that realization they would offer to negotiate a peace. Charis offering to negotiate a peace before the CoGA is ready will likely extend the hostilities.

That's why I said timing is critical. Right now the CoGA is still thinking of the war in terms of asserting the Church's authority. But once the Church's armies have been broken, once Charisian forces are invading the Temple lands, and the CoGA has no more resources to draw on, that will change. Then it will be a war for survival - one that the Church will be clearly losing. At that point Charis offering terms isn't a sign of weakness, anymore than Cayleb offering terms to Thirsk at Armageddon Reef or to Gahrvai in Talbor Pass, or Eastshare at Fort Tairys. Instead it becomes a way for the Church to salvage disaster from a catastrophe.

I assume that the Inner Circle needs access to the Temple in order to try to deal with the returning Archangels and the bombardment system. But they are the only ones who know that's a goal. Charis offering terms is a way to preempt Duchairn from offering terms that don't give them that access. That's really the only way Charis can lose. If the Church elects to fight to the end, Charis will ultimately take the Temple, but at maximum cost. If the Church accepts Charis terms they get the access they need with a much lower butchers bill.

As for Clyntahn, it will almost certainly be over his dead body. But properly timed, the terms could help bring about that happy event.

jms

You guys did note Cyntahn's little interior monologue that he's made sure that there are no armed forces in Zion, right? Aside from the relative handful of Temple Guardsmen?

Either that's going to change--or KH VII's leading packed transports are going to be effectively unopposed with they sail in. Either way, I'm sure that RFC will have some fun entertaining us.