BB(P/C) for rear area security

A few points/questions on various things mentioned here.

1) David one said that Battle Steel is actually a carbon nano-composite, it apparently has no significant amount of iron in it.

2) When people talk about thousands of pods being dropped off with a wing of of LACs, exactly what provides fire control for these? It has never even been hinted that a LAC has the ability to provide fire control for a MDM or that it has anything close to the sensor capability needed to effectively use these at range.

3) David apparently decided that 18 years of fuel was absurd for LACs and I'm told it's 18 months. Who is going to refuel thousands of these rather fiercely radioactive ships and who is going to build the new fuel modules? Or are the LACs only nominally "patrolling" the system so they all don't have to be parked in two years?

4) If you deploy thousands of pods in a system, who maintains them? These are sitting out in deep space, presumably running on batteries (as the reactors are very hot and have a run time of weeks), so you'll need to go out and pull maintenance of these at some regular interval that is likely to be less then a year. If you assume every 6 months that means you are working on 11 pods every day, 365 days a year, of your 2000 pods. Which doesn't seem like that many, but given the distances between them and the mass/size of a pod means you have to have multiple teams, each with their own ship, doing this continually.

kzt wrote:3) David apparently decided that 18 years of fuel was absurd for LACs and I'm told it's 18 months. Who is going to refuel thousands of these rather fiercely radioactive ships and who is going to build the new fuel modules? Or are the LACs only nominally "patrolling" the system so they all don't have to be parked in two years?

According to the infodump, he said he was probably going to let the typo stand as is. Unless there's somewhere else that I'm not seeing? http://infodump.thefifthimperium.com/en ... gton/145/1

Pearls of Weber wrote:I don't think I've indicated the shorter endurance (the 18-month value, that is) anywhere else in the series, so I'm inclining towards allowing the 18-year endurance to stand. I haven't totally made up my mind in that direction, but I think it's likely that I will.

Manticore does not need to capture, or ally with, every single Protectorate or Shell system. Positroll says that any systems that splinter from the League and wants to ally with Manticore will demand a powerful force to defend it. But Manticore doesn't need to agree. If the system isn't strong enough to defend itself, why would the League want to attack it in the first place? And from a practical standpoint, why should Manticore care? Such a system poses no threat to Manticore, and is not important enough to draw attention from the League in the middle of a war.

Manticore cannot put a powerful force in every single system that it captures or frees. It simply cannot--there is absolutely no way it can produce enough ships to do that. Concievably it could make enough destroyers or LAC forces to garrison all those systems. But to put a battleship or two in every single system is absurd. You can create nodal forces to retake anything the League decides to go after. But building a thousand battleships just for garrison duty is just way way too much.

SWM wrote:Manticore cannot put a powerful force in every single system that it captures or frees. It simply cannot--there is absolutely no way it can produce enough ships to do that. Concievably it could make enough destroyers or LAC forces to garrison all those systems. But to put a battleship or two in every single system is absurd. You can create nodal forces to retake anything the League decides to go after. But building a thousand battleships just for garrison duty is just way way too much.

If only Manticore had a few hundred ships, at least matching the SLN's tech level, that it could donate to liberated systems for their self defense!

Bill Woods wrote:If only Manticore had a few hundred ships, at least matching the SLN's tech level, that it could donate to liberated systems for their self defense!

Stop that crazy talk!

*facepalm* not this again...

Oh boy. Everybody piles on poor me ... lieutenant ... oops, when did that happen?

Ok, before i get promoted again on the basis of a single topic, here is my last try. After that, I'll leave it in the hands of the experts.

BTW, is there a thread on what the next RMN CL will look like? Got some ideas ...


@ fester
Then please explain to us why the BB-P/C is the best available option against the following threat: 4 1921 NIKEs and 4 1921 Aggemennons with their pod bays full of capacitor fed MDMs?
… Now the defensive add-on options are the following:
1) 1 SD-P
2) 2 BB-P/C with 3 frigates and 20 additional LACs
3) a full LAC wing and 2,000 additional pods (basically what the Talbott worlds are getting as 10th Fleet) and a good sensor network.
4) #3 plus a light speed only Moriatry network on an armored hyper capable hull.

As said above, I’d put a SysDefCruiser in orbit. The BB(P)s is prowling just outside the hyperlimit.
Because once they drop into the system, the BB(P) mirco jumps behind them at a distance of 70 mio km (i.e. out of range for the capacitator fed MDMs), then sends a wave of Apollo guided Mk 23 with dazzlers and dragon teeth. Will kill all the invaders without them being able to shoot back.
SD(P) can do the same but is more expensive. A LAC flight would need to close and suffer severe casualties. A Moriarty network needs time to set up and isn’t an option in all systems for political reasons

@Duck
Your are positing that the Alliance build an entire navy - not a squadron, not a task force, not even a fleet, but an entire navy from the ground up - in addition to maintaining and expanding the navies they already have. It's impossible. Either your production numbers are going to be so small as to be a drop in the ocean when weighed against your defensive needs, or you completely abandon all other production to make it happen (which would be manifestly insane). To protect even the Alliance's current real estate in the manner you're suggesting would be a monumental drain on resources. That's why you focus on building the classes which have the most utility on offense and defense.
Besides, David's already outlined how he plans on defending the systems economically.
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=2677&p=55314


1) I already agreed some pages ago that Mycroft and LAC makes sense to protect the current real estate. I also agree that they make sense in the long run to protect systems likey Meyers. I want the BBs to take control of Solly Protectorates for a while while the situation gets sorted out, and for those systems the GA wants to defend (or keep under tight control) but can’t put Mycroft in for political (reliance) resasons …

2) Resources
The Manties just went from a population of maybe 5 billion (including StMartin) to a star empire of more than 20 billion citizens that need to be protected and who pay taxes. Don’t you think that might lead to some increased building capacity over time? And as mentioned above, the new top of the line shipyards being build will have a huge capacity – once the initial problems are worked out. And since we don’t know yet what kind of ships we might need to fight the MA, it makes sense to go with “good enough” BBs now (after a first run of Nikes and Aggie IIs) and free the building slips again half a year earlier (compared to SDs) to use them to build the next generation of Detweiler-killing SDs (or monitors or whateva) …
Beowulff is a very rich, very populated, very productive planet that won’t be happy with a mere 36 SDs for long. Don’t you think they can easily match what Grayson has done production wise? Ideologically, the will be at least as driven to fight the evil of the MA and its puppets. Even if only Beowulff (once its shipyards are expanded and modernized) goes for BB production that should be enough capacity for the 200 BBs I am talking about (timeline wise, they’ll rather be building the next generation of SD(P)S )
The Haven economy is strongly expanding, with the long term effects of the end of the Legislaturalist + Pierre regimes coming to the fore ony after some delay (in Germany it took from 1990 to 2006 for all the positive economic factors to come into play (not counting a mini boom in the West 1990-91)). Especially now, once they have access again to the Mantie junction, opening up Silesia and the Andermani market for them for the first time in many decades.

@Jonathan S
In many cases the splintered off systems won't even be friendly to the GA, much less allied with it and under it's protection.
Yes, some verge systems around the Talbot Quadrant are looking for GA support throwing off the OFS. But most of the splintering the Harrington strategy is looking for isn't Verge systems breaking away, but Core and Shell systems forming their own little cliques or alliances; removing their forces and economy from control of the SL, but not automatically (or even likely) switching to GA allies or protectorates.
So much of the splinters shouldn't need or ask for GA protection. Which means that Manticore and Haven shouldn't need to worry about putting defensive forces (of whatever strength) into hundreds of new systems.

Sure. But there are THOUSANDS of Sollie Systems. I don’t want a BB for all of them. Just for some of them, usually just for a while …: As I said above:
5a) System cooperates and stabilizes. Mycroft gets put in. GA CL or DD gets assigned to call for reinfocements if necessary, BB and SDC leave System after a year or so.
5b) System remains hostile. BB and SDC trash shipsyards if there are any; DD gets assigned, BB and SDC leave system,
I’ll now add 5c) System is stable and able to defend itself against Sollies. Non-ggression pact gets concluded. GA leaves system alone.

@SWM
Manticore does not need to capture, or ally with, every single Protectorate or Shell system. Positroll says that any systems that splinter from the League and wants to ally with Manticore will demand a powerful force to defend it. But Manticore doesn't need to agree. If the system isn't strong enough to defend itself, why would the League want to attack it in the first place? And from a practical standpoint, why should Manticore care? Such a system poses no threat to Manticore, and is not important enough to draw attention from the League in the middle of a war.

I never said all of them. But as many as possible, to increase the GA’s ecomonic reach and deny the resources + fees to the Sl (cf. the analysis done by the Solly/MA analyst presented to the top mandarin …)

2) Resources
The Manties just went from a population of maybe 5 billion (including StMartin) to a star empire of more than 20 billion citizens that need to be protected and who pay taxes. Don’t you think that might lead to some increased building capacity over time? And as mentioned above, the new top of the line shipyards being build will have a huge capacity – once the initial problems are worked out. And since we don’t know yet what kind of ships we might need to fight the MA, it makes sense to go with “good enough” BBs now (after a first run of Nikes and Aggie IIs) and free the building slips again half a year earlier (compared to SDs) to use them to build the next generation of Detweiler-killing SDs (or monitors or whateva) …

By that same logic, why build BBs, when you don't know if they're good enough for fighting the League or the Alignment? If you're that worried about building "good enough" ships, you would be building BC(P)s (for the lower construction time) and/or BC(L)s (for retaining viability longer term), not battleships.

Even supposing that the BB is viable, your plan has a one time production run of BBs, which will net you all of, what, 8-9 squadrons worth (recalling that various yards have ships in various stages in construction, such that they all can't drop whatever they're doing to build BBs)? 8-9 squadrons is miniscule, and the time savings over a SD(P) (of which David has already stated to be on the order of 4 months) would be largely immaterial. Like I said, it's a drop in the ocean when viewed with how many systems need to be protected, and gets you nothing in terms of actual, useful combat ability for the not too distant future of widespread podlayer+MDM based combat.

Ship weights have been trending upwards steadily. So why then, would the Alliance deliberately go back to a much smaller, less capable, capital ship? The current SD(P) designs might become less ideal as new tactics and technology come into being, but they're far more likely to retain utility in the face of such changes. By virtue of its sheer size, the SD(P) is going to have more room for accepting modifications, and its sheer toughness means it has a better shot of surviving new or improved weapons. The BB(P) does not.

Beowulff is a very rich, very populated, very productive planet that won’t be happy with a mere 36 SDs for long. Don’t you think they can easily match what Grayson has done production wise? Ideologically, the will be at least as driven to fight the evil of the MA and its puppets. Even if only Beowulff (once its shipyards are expanded and modernized) goes for BB production that should be enough capacity for the 200 BBs I am talking about (timeline wise, they’ll rather be building the next generation of SD(P)S )

Grayson had the benefit of a decade of ramping up Blackbird in order to facilitate construction on that scale, and a centuries long conflict with Masada as practice. They have plenty of experience sacrificing the civilian economy for the military. Beowulf hasn't been on a war footing until just recently, and is diverting all of its industry setting up ammunition and advanced Manticoran electronics production - big enough for the entire Alliance. For the foreseeable future, any modern capital ships it wants is going to have to come from Haven. It's not going to have the capability to mass produce capital ships anytime soon. (Which isn't to say they won't get some shipbuilding done in the interim, but certainly not on the levels Manticore and Grayson had achieved).

The Haven economy is strongly expanding, with the long term effects of the end of the Legislaturalist + Pierre regimes coming to the fore ony after some delay (in Germany it took from 1990 to 2006 for all the positive economic factors to come into play (not counting a mini boom in the West 1990-91)). Especially now, once they have access again to the Mantie junction, opening up Silesia and the Andermani market for them for the first time in many decades.

Yes, and Haven is the going to be the only major producer of capital ships for the Alliance for the foreseeable future. The Alliance is deathly afraid that the League will get its act together despite everything they can do, at which point the League will plow the Alliance under with its massive manufacturing potential. To counter that, they need as many SD(P)s as possible, which means getting as much of a head start as possible. So they should be cranking out SD(P)s - of which they already have the battle-tested designs in series production - instead of BB(P)s which have not been proven nor the kinks in production worked out. Initial runs of BB(P)s would take at least as long as constructing SD(P)s because of those kinks. So if you're only going to be producing a small run of them, you've just lost your entire manufacturing time justification.

Why does this thing have LACs? LACs are wonderful for system protection, but they're awful in combat in the low numbers you've provided for them. It'd take 8 ships, a full-on squadron, to match a single CLAC.

LACs rely on overwhelming numbers in order to swamp the target with too many targets, especially when they get close. 8-12 LACs aren't useful, they're just target practice. If you are worried about customs patrols, it's been shown several times, most recently in Shadow of Saganami, that pinnaces are extremely effective at customs patrols, as well as being more than adequate to blow the crap out of merchants, if necessary.

I was also wondering why you have your missiles in the hammerhead. With the capability to fire off-bore, the newer designs (with the exception of the special case of the Roland-class) have been opting to thin their energy armament off the broadsides and place it in the hammerhead, in order to make room for more tubes on each broadside.

Honestly, if I was designing a BB(P) for your intended role, I'd go a completely different route than the one you've stated. I'd make it a smaller version of the Invictus-class, by deleting all tubes and putting in as much fire control and EW systems as I can cram in with the extra space. I would most definitely not try cramming in LACs in, either. I would basically make it as close to a mobile Mycroft as possible.

However, a lot of the same points Duckk brought up are still valid. The turnaround time would be slow, it would actually probably be even slower at first because nobody has used that size of hull in years. The craft wouldn't have a lot of savings in time. Despite being half the size of an Invictus, most of the time in construction isn't building the frame, it's putting everything in. Fusion plants, fire control, EW, damage control, nodes, hyper generator, so on, and so on. And then making sure everything works properly.

kzt wrote:

Bill Woods wrote:If only Manticore had a few hundred ships, at least matching the SLN's tech level, that it could donate to liberated systems for their self defense!

Stop that crazy talk!

Yes, such crazy talk is far to logical. Everyone knows that Shell Systems with populations measured in billions and an SL level technology base simply could not support a few SDs, especially if the RMN could provide a carefully selected, treecat vetted of trained crew that had been captured with the SL SDs along with spare parts and maintenance support from the captured fleet train.