Linux vs Winblows

I use Lennix with Firefox and I know NOTHING about compouters. My nephew, when he got his MS in compouter science and shook Mr Bill Gates hand and much later gave me a short 30 minute lecture why Lennix was better than Microsoft, but I only understood about one word in three, even though he was speaking plain American English. The British spell check is fun also. HB of CJ (old coot) non compouter literate.

3 posts and you still ignore much of what I say. I'm not impressed.

cthia wrote:What's ironic is if people were given an ultimatum, to chose which OS would be eternally banished, but also given a list what would be lost.

Linux wins hands down.

Would you give up the internet? Linux based.
Would you give up your cell phone? Which I am going out on a limb and guessing...yep, Linux based. Whether it's an iphone or an android.

All of your gadgets at home...Linux based. Windows won't run on small tv cpu chips, or remote controllers, or thermostat controllers, etc. etc. etc.

Donna,

I admit that at times I'm a bit slow. It's my half-brain.
So, please forgive me because I do not know what points I have failed to address. I thought I did, however there was so much ground to cover that I might have lightly touched on something in which you required more coverage. Please do point that out.

And do know, that if you really believe that my goal is to impress then you've missed the entire point of the post.

I have no need to impress anyone.

And if my goal was to impress, instead of sharing with all whom may not be aware of other options, then why you?

Why do you feel a need for me to impress you?

Or more succinctly, why do you feel that I feel a need to impress you?

I assure you, you are in error.

I remain on vacation. Eight days remaining after a week or so being snowed in at the beach on the East Coast with my fiancee`.

I am not supposed to be playing with any gadgets, Windows or Linux based so the time I spend in this forum is quite limited. If you care to look I've only joined the forum less than two weeks ago, the first days of my vacation.

The woman that has stolen my heart...
Ok that's not quite true, the woman that I have begged to accept my heart...now her I am trying to impress.

cthia wrote:I remain on vacation. Eight days remaining after a week or so being snowed in at the beach on the East Coast with my fiancee`.

I am not supposed to be playing with any gadgets, Windows or Linux based so the time I spend in this forum is quite limited. If you care to look I've only joined the forum less than two weeks ago, the first days of my vacation.

The woman that has stolen my heart...
Ok that's not quite true, the woman that I have begged to accept my heart...now her I am trying to impress.

OK, OK. Clearly Unix is superior. I just finished talking to an acquaintance from CSEC and he talked to a buddy in the NSA and they both agree with you. They were able to isolate and document all the online activity you weren't supposed to be having during your vacation and forwarded it to your SO in a matter of minutes using the power of Unix. Had they been stuck using Windows, I probably couldn't have called in this little favour.

So you win, I guess...

jchilds wrote:

cthia wrote:I remain on vacation. Eight days remaining after a week or so being snowed in at the beach on the East Coast with my fiancee`.

I am not supposed to be playing with any gadgets, Windows or Linux based so the time I spend in this forum is quite limited. If you care to look I've only joined the forum less than two weeks ago, the first days of my vacation.

The woman that has stolen my heart...
Ok that's not quite true, the woman that I have begged to accept my heart...now her I am trying to impress.

OK, OK. Clearly Unix is superior. I just finished talking to an acquaintance from CSEC and he talked to a buddy in the NSA and they both agree with you. They were able to isolate and document all the online activity you weren't supposed to be having during your vacation and forwarded it to your SO in a matter of minutes using the power of Unix. Had they been stuck using Windows, I probably couldn't have called in this little favour.

So you win, I guess...

Please tell me that SO in which you speak of isn't my fiancee'. Or else I am toast, English toast!

Yes Unix/Linux is superior, by far. But I understand the convenience of Windows.

cthia wrote:

jchilds wrote:OK, OK. Clearly Unix is superior. I just finished talking to an acquaintance from CSEC and he talked to a buddy in the NSA and they both agree with you. They were able to isolate and document all the online activity you weren't supposed to be having during your vacation and forwarded it to your SO in a matter of minutes using the power of Unix. Had they been stuck using Windows, I probably couldn't have called in this little favour.

So you win, I guess...

Please tell me that SO in which you speak of isn't my fiancee'. Or else I am toast, English toast!

Yes Unix/Linux is superior, by far. But I understand the convenience of Windows.

I'm sure JCHILDS remembered to send plenty of butter with his message. Just in case your fiancé doesn't like dry toast.

I mentioned the business reasons for using Windows and specifically stated that you did not address them.

As far as viruses go, I should have said malware since that is what I was talking about. And Linux is vulnerable: http://www.linuxinsider.com/story/78748.html

You also ignored what I said that directly refuted your statement about ATMs and banking.

cthia wrote:Donna,

I admit that at times I'm a bit slow. It's my half-brain.
So, please forgive me because I do not know what points I have failed to address. I thought I did, however there was so much ground to cover that I might have lightly touched on something in which you required more coverage. Please do point that out.

And do know, that if you really believe that my goal is to impress then you've missed the entire point of the post.

I have no need to impress anyone.

And if my goal was to impress, instead of sharing with all whom may not be aware of other options, then why you?

Why do you feel a need for me to impress you?

Or more succinctly, why do you feel that I feel a need to impress you?

I assure you, you are in error.

I remain on vacation. Eight days remaining after a week or so being snowed in at the beach on the East Coast with my fiancee`.

I am not supposed to be playing with any gadgets, Windows or Linux based so the time I spend in this forum is quite limited. If you care to look I've only joined the forum less than two weeks ago, the first days of my vacation.

The woman that has stolen my heart...
Ok that's not quite true, the woman that I have begged to accept my heart...now her I am trying to impress.

Donnachaidh,

I'll field the viruses, trojans inquiry first.

Yes, any OS can be infected by malware as well as viruses if the user specifically installs it. Read fully the article you suggested to me and you can discern that its very difficult to infect Linux. In fact when Linux is infected it is almost always the fault of the user. It's a powerful OS and it'll let you do most anything you elect to do. You can even wipe out your entire OS with a single command of less than 10 characters.

But I digress. If a user adopts and follows simple strategies...

1. Installing software from trusted sites---repositories only.

2. Running the Md5 checksum on the file first, regardless of how lazy you are or how much of a hurry you are in. Md5 checksums are mentioned in your article. Essentially, a clean program has a certain number of bytes. If someone tampers with it, if a virus is introduced to the code then the length of code of the virus will change the Md5 sum. You can enable automatic checksumming.

3. Never run as root until and unless you need to.

4. Avoid infection via social engineering--allowing someone else access to your password. Allowing some one else to install items onto your machine. Allowing the use of thumb drives that are not screened, using passwords that are intimate--your b'day, your partner's b'day, names, etc. People will get close to you just to learn those things---social engineering.

5. Not Allowing someone access to your bios.

6. Disabling auto boot from peripherals.

7. Close all unnecessary ports.

8. Set system password. It amazes me how many computer users fail to set a system level password. Laziness! Sure they have a password set that must be input after the computer boots (a windows, gui level password), that will allow them in. But a system level password is the most secure. Your computer shouldn't even boot until a password is entered. Then another after it boots. System level passwords are enabled within the bios. Even for windows users.

9. USE THE POWER INHERENT IN LINUX--THE FORENSIC SOFTWARE.

So you see there are just too many levels of security inherent in Linux. And if a user follows certain procedures, chance of infection are virtually nil. In the article it even admits that infection procedures count on slack users or habits...social engineering. Rootkits. Rootkits have to be personally installed on a Linux machine. You can not infect a Linux machine with a rootkit via the internet. Either the owner of the computer is tricked, somehow, into installing it or someone has broken into his home and installs it, etc.

Most comfortable Linux users employ the same software that FBI, CIA and law enforcement entities employ to keep their systems safe. These tools are part of the open source software paradigm--available for free on the repositories. Depending on the version of Linux, these tools come pre-installed. But even if they are not installation is just a click away.

And even if malware, or even viruses do manage to infect a Linux system. Infection is limited due to file, group permission settings, etc. Any change a virus or malware does to a system is logged.

You don't need antivirus software to remove it. Linux has built-in facilities to deal with it.
You simply drop down to the command line. Run [top], a Linux command, or [ps -e], to list all processes.

"Ah, a new process...date...I haven't installed anything!"

"You're it!" Found in moments.

How to get rid of it: kill 2345 (2345 is the number of the errant process-program that would be listed in top)

Poof, just like that. Problem solved.

I have a friend that tests Linux' weaknesses. At a get together he told us that it took hours before he--a professional--could disable systematically all of the inherent checks within Linux just so he could infect it. In other words, a properly set up system is difficult to infect intentionally!

ATM's

Actually I did respond to the ATM thread, I don't know how you missed it. At any rate I'll give it another go.

The link that you sent me only references the software that controls the ATM's transactions only!

No matter what happens within the ATM, at the end of the day its reports, its data is acquired and collected by the banks main computer, which is a mainframe running Unix/Linux.

A windows computer running locally with respect to the ATM, controls the normal everyday transactions. Deposits, withdrawals, transfers, etc.

A Unix/Linux mainframe controls the ATM.

ATM activity is collected by the mainframe. The Comptroller or Systems Administrator sits in a large room surrounded by Unix computers. (He probably despises the Windows machines he has to support.)

From that lofty perch he can access the ATM's and shut them down, initiate security protocols---access camera images--and other activities.

Mainframes are NOT windows based. Not a single Windows mainframe exist.

Come on Donna, that should be enough for you right there!

In 2011 IBM made support for windows available to mainframes---easing the chore of SysAds.

They probably acted in response to the decades of %$#$ %$^# $%$@ %#%$ spewing out of the mouths of SysOps!

The U.S. Department of Defense uses Linux. NASA uses Linux. All of the onboard systems on the Navy's hardware, fighter jets, nuclear subs, etc. probably uses Linux. And if it doesn't it definitely does NOT use Windows. If they did we all know, even you, where that scenario would lead...

"Attention US, we are now in control of your fighter jets, missiles, submarines, etc!"

One reason the military uses Linux, besides the issue of security, is Linux' power and flexibility.

Case in point. Many software issues were repaired on satellites, Mars rovers, exploration probes etc., on the fly!

If a software fix is required for windows, you need to have physical access to the machine oftentimes. With Linux, software changes can always be affected on the fly, millions of miles away.

And even if the software can be altered from a distance in windows it still won't suffice, isn't practical. Why? I am sure you can guess why. Yep, after software changes are effected in windows the entire computer has to be shutdown and rebooted.

WHAT???!!! Shutdown an expensive, single satellite enroute to Mars, effectively rendering it blind and helpless, at the speeds its traveling? All systems!?!

I don't think so! Neither do you!!

Linux repairs are affected on the fly. Alter whatever code, voila. No need to reboot. An intelligent, powerful no nonsense operating system.

Trust me, you are ecstatic that your Country's defenses are not windows based.

One poster here stated, proudly it seems, that since he has been using Windows Vista that he has only suffered a couple of crashes. UNBELIEVABLE! Has Microsoft brainwashed people to that degree?

Listen. Crashes are NOT acceptable. Not three. Not two. And certainly not one! He also stated that the crashes he suffered were not catastrophic. BUT WHAT IF THEY WERE??? Just because a bullet misses you is by no means a reason not to avoid any more shots aimed at you, or not to be pissed that a shot was taken at you in the first place!

I'm a programmer. I could lose years of work in a single crash. Yes, years! Its happened before, on windows. That was the last time. I never got those years back. That code was forever lost.

Linux users pride themselves on how long their machines have been running without having to reboot or shutdown for general system upkeeping and maintenance that Windows needs. Or repair due to a fatal crash. Its called uptime. In fact the command [uptime] can be issued at any time on any Unix based system.

Uptime is also a part of security. If your machine was shutdown. You'd know about it!

BUSINESS

****** *
You're very successful at not understanding that most computer users don't have the time or (more importantly the inclination) to learn the technical skills required for Linux.

The other thing is that (for better or worse) the world of business relies on programs that are built for Windows and spending the time and money to provide those same off the shelf capability for a Linux environment not to mention the additional training and increased time to complete tasks is not a wise business choice. -Donna
****** *

I do understand that most windows users think they don't have the time to learn Linux.

They are basing that assumption on Linux of yesteryear. Linux used to be the domain of geeks. Not true anymore. There are some versions that still aspire to that. Red Hat, BSD to name a few. But there are many user friendly versions. Ubuntu is the most popular, and easier to learn than new versions of windows. I hear many people complaining because Windows 8 confuses them???!

It no longer takes a tactical genius to learn Linux. Firefox, Chrome, word processing, what's to that? All on a clutter-free screen with not a single popup distracting you.

Try it, its all I'm asking. Its free! You'll get hooked.

As far as not having the inclination to learn it. Now that, you're right, I don't understand, especially since I hear many of you complaining, and my constantly servicing windows computers repeatedly for the same problems.

And again this kind of thinking, I fear has its roots in...fear, of the old unforgiving Linux meant for power users and geeks. What tips me off is your reference to technical skills required?

There are no more technical skills required to simply be an end user as it is for windows. To be a programmer, yes. To be a power user, yes. But how many people even use all of the little power available to windows? Have you ever used the command line? Do you have a system level password. Have you optimized your windows environment in respect to your ssd drive?

The point of Linux is this. If you don't need the POWER then fine, its hidden away. If you do, it's there. Nuclear power!

And if your needs do grow, isn't it nice to have the capability to do certain things? Most new Linux users are amazed constantly. 'Darn I didn't know you could do that?' 'Wow!'

Example of the power:
With a single 20 to 30 character command one could change the permissions on thousands of files, change the names of those files, make backups of the original files, relocate the files-to different directories according to file type, rename the directory or directories across many directories and across many computers from a single command, without a single click of the mouse.

Try that with windows. Tsk!, even with the mouse it will drive you crazy all the copying and pasting and copying and pasting, screen changes and directory changes on and on and on.

You might complete the task in several sessions. Less than one minute with Linux! Without developing carpal tunnel in your wrist.

***
It is true that the world of business depends on programs targeted for windows.

It is likewise true that the world of business depends on programs targeted for Linux.

It is also true that there are many more business computers running Windows. However those same computers can be supplanted with Linux compatibles, if need be, if wanted.

Yet the reverse is NOT true. The few Linux machines used for business CANNOT be supplanted by Windows machines. They don't even exist! Those machines are mission critical!

There isn't a Windows mainframe that can supplant Wall Street's Linux mainframe. And if one became available you wouldn't be able to pay the powers-that-be to adopt an unproven system for one proven, battle-hardened one!

Especially here in the 21st century with computer warfare, espionage and blue collar crime! Certain third world countries would announce a week long country-wide holiday with pay if they found out that Wall Street was windows based! Although it may have prevented 911. They may have elected to attack Wall Street cyberly, instead!

I don't deny that there'd be a terrible inconvenience without Windows computers.

But there'd be a stock market crash without Linux. And since internet communications is built on the back of Linux--infrastructure would crumble! We are dependent on it!

Final...

... spending the time and money to provide those same off the shelf capability for a Linux environment not to mention the additional training and increased time to complete tasks is not a wise business choice. -Donna

I beg to differ. This is the kind of thinking that is anathema to American business.

First off the compatible computer programs are free, saving thousands of dollars there.

Updates are free, more savings. The ATM's wouldn't be facing what they are facing now. Discontinued support from an insensitive, ruthless, greedy software giant whom feels no loyalty or respect for its customers.

One of your considerations was cost and time. What about the time and cost of replacing software and computers in half a million ATM's country wide?!

But let's do get back to this anathemic business mindset of not a wise business choice.

That is a relative statement. Based on American businesses' short-sightedness, that is indeed true.

American business's CEOs are not rewarded for long term thinking. If they fail to show a profit in current quarter their resume is dusted off!

American businesses are not going to invest in, or adopt business plans that not only are designed to most likely only show a profit in a few decades, but to actually operate in the red until then.

Case in point. Japan invested in robotics to build automobiles. It was a huge investment building entirely new plants, retraining people, replacing equipment, trashing current equipment, hiring new people, training those people, all while knowing it would be decades before they showed a profit.

The outcome...we all know that don't we? Our govt. is spending our money to bail out our automakers because they can't compete with foreign makers. Simply because we wouldn't take a temporary hit in revenues for a firm failsafe long-term business plan, instead of one motivated and fueled only by greed, irresponsibility, short-sightedness and selfishness.

And we continue to resist! Our auto factories are either still doing things the old-fashioned way or the responsibility has been moved over seas.

We fail to make the long-term investment therefore cannot make attractive, desirable, reliable cars borne of robotics and their thousandths of an inch tolerances. We're lucky if we can get the measurement to within an inch!

A million dollar home and you have to call the builder back to repair a door that won't close properly, because it was cut inches off?? That does NOT happen in Germany!

So, your final argument that it wouldn't be a wise business choice is correct...

If you are only considering the current CEO's track record, and if you are not factoring in the money stolen from tax-payers bailing out the short-sightedness of this kind of thinking.

And if that business choice isn't complete and true.

Now I have to ask you.

Would you really prefer National Security and System Defense and the World's financial system to be dependent on...Microsoft???

I am expecting an answer to that.

I think we're having 2 different discussions. I'm arguing that with the reality of the world today, Linux is not a feasible option for typical users in many businesses. I'm not arguing that it's not incredibly valuable, or that it doesn't work quite well, or that it's difficult to use.

I'm saying that regardless of the technical reality of Linux, unless Microsoft screws up drastically for a long period of time (10+ years), companies will not switch. Too many companies run custom programs and have machines that have Windows embedded. No only that but you talking about changing how companies manage their infrastructure. You're also assuming that the software available for Linux is of equivalent power, utility, and flexibility to what's available for Windows and still allows legacy files to be accessed and used.

Not only that but the people now running most companies (not just executives, but managers, and other people of influence in companies) already went through the switch to using computers and many of them struggle with what they have now. Getting them to be willing to even try learning to use Linux would be a massive fight and likely lead to failure do to resistance.

To give you an example of how long machines will be used with Windows embedded, I work for an electronics manufacturing company that goes from bare circuit board to complete unit. The SMT (surface mount technology) machine is critical to that manufacturing, it places the hundreds (or in some cases thousands) of small surface mounted components at a rate of up to 40,000 parts/hour. That machine runs on Windows 2000. The only upgrade option is Windows 7 and that is costing the company about $150,000 due to required hardware, complex custom software, changes to the machine, and the customization to make it work with our SMT line.

That SMT line cost ~$2 million over 10 years ago, a new line is ~$2.6 million now. That's not including setup costs nor building modifications to provide ventilation and power.

Here's another example of software longevity from my work. We are still using the MRP (manufacturing resource planning) system the company bought over 25 years ago. It runs on a custom Sun Microsystems OS (it looks and acts very similar to DOS) that requires a finicky custom emulator to run on the Windows XP and Windows 7 computers that users have. The current plan our parent company has is to switch us to Oracle in 2015; that switch has an estimated cost (licensing, training, lost productivity, etc...) of over $2 million.

cthia wrote:Giant snip...

Donnachaidh wrote:I think we're having 2 different discussions. I'm arguing that with the reality of the world today, Linux is not a feasible option for typical users in many businesses. I'm not arguing that it's not incredibly valuable, or that it doesn't work quite well, or that it's difficult to use.

I'm saying that regardless of the technical reality of Linux, unless Microsoft screws up drastically for a long period of time (10+ years), companies will not switch. Too many companies run custom programs and have machines that have Windows embedded. No only that but you talking about changing how companies manage their infrastructure. You're also assuming that the software available for Linux is of equivalent power, utility, and flexibility to what's available for Windows and still allows legacy files to be accessed and used.

Not only that but the people now running most companies (not just executives, but managers, and other people of influence in companies) already went through the switch to using computers and many of them struggle with what they have now. Getting them to be willing to even try learning to use Linux would be a massive fight and likely lead to failure do to resistance.

To give you an example of how long machines will be used with Windows embedded, I work for an electronics manufacturing company that goes from bare circuit board to complete unit. The SMT (surface mount technology) machine is critical to that manufacturing, it places the hundreds (or in some cases thousands) of small surface mounted components at a rate of up to 40,000 parts/hour. That machine runs on Windows 2000. The only upgrade option is Windows 7 and that is costing the company about $150,000 due to required hardware, complex custom software, changes to the machine, and the customization to make it work with our SMT line.

That SMT line cost ~$2 million over 10 years ago, a new line is ~$2.6 million now. That's not including setup costs nor building modifications to provide ventilation and power.

Here's another example of software longevity from my work. We are still using the MRP (manufacturing resource planning) system the company bought over 25 years ago. It runs on a custom Sun Microsystems OS (it looks and acts very similar to DOS) that requires a finicky custom emulator to run on the Windows XP and Windows 7 computers that users have. The current plan our parent company has is to switch us to Oracle in 2015; that switch has an estimated cost (licensing, training, lost productivity, etc...) of over $2 million.

cthia wrote:Giant snip...

I understand those points. Believe me, I have worked for companies whom are still in the dark ages too. They feel its too much trouble to change over to anything else. And there simply is no incentive to do so.

Alternatives do exist even in your case.

I have a couple of Sun Systems. I collect nostalgic hardware.

But that problem you've touched on stems from unfair trade practices of one Redmond giant.

Same as Ma Bell & AT&T.

I do not see Windows surviving. I just don't.

This year, will spell the beginning of Windows demise.

Once the Ubuntu tablet is released people's eyes are going to open.

And they'll see Microsoft for the first time.