Rediscovery of Technology

jchilds wrote:Of course, sometimes it's fun to look at things from the other side - what our "present day" might look like through the distorting lens of misinterpreted fragmentary data in the far future.

Just imagine what some future academics might think of the state of Maine if all they had to go on was Stephen King novels and the show "Murder, She Wrote"...

The fourth Star Trek movie (the one about the Whales) had an interesting riff on this. Captain Kirk's mode of speech changes and Spock comments on this.

Kirk: You mean the profanity? That's simply the way they talk here. Nobody pays attention to you unless you swear every other word. You'll find it in all the literature of the period.

Spock: For example?

Kirk: Oh the collected works of Jacqueline Susann. The novels of Harold Robbins...

Spock: Ah, the "Giants".

If thats what people only a few hundred years from now might think, imagine going forward a thousand years (about the same span as from us to the Middle Ages), two thousand years (us to the time of the Roman Empire) or three thousand years (the Bronze Age), when English is a dead language and our writing is as incomprehensible as "Linear A".

For that matter, see it imagined here: "Time" by XKCD http://geekwagon.net/projects/xkcd1190/

Or the old sanskrit which is still not decipherable or the writing on easter island, nor the language plagues taken by the spanish to the vaticah from a people on a island in the south atlantic. None of those have been deciphered and good luck getting the vatican to give up things they want to keep hidden. I also wonder how many cities was submerged or lost over time due to the rise of water or tetonic actions.
nations and people rise and fall all the time and one of the first things that disappear is technology.

another one of the oddities for which there is no reasonable explantion. http://www.messagetoeagle.com/discsabu. ... wFKHmJdWa8

I always have a problem with the whole "conspiracy theory" approach to life.

I can imagine that there are indeed plenty of conspiracies involving getting re-elected, removing political opponents, winning contracts, embezzling public finances and so on.

I can believe that there are organisations such as the Vatican that are sitting on many tons of old documents (or destroyed them years ago) to prevent there being evidence that contradicts their doctrine. Just as there are banks and financial institutions that really, really don't want all their complete books and records explored and audited.

Military secrets, secret stealth aircraft or internet surveillance programs? Sure.
Though note that even the largest, most organised, most secret program in the world, run by the NSA, still got revealed and plastered across the world's media.

However, there are just too many "conspiracies" I have to just ask "Why? Who gains from turning this into a big conspiracy"

Why is there a big conspiracy to cover up the existence of the Loch Ness monster instead of turning it into a seriously major tourist attraction?

How did they manage to fake the Apollo moon landings - after all, there are a few problems in faking it. Here
- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P6MOnehCOUw

Why would they cover up the existence of scary aliens?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DYd82RLymEw%20?
"So as you know we just discovered the existence of aliens due to that spaceship with aliens in that crashed and they've got super-advanced technology and it's all massively frightening."
"So, what's the plan?"
"Well, keep it all secret, obviously, if at all possible"
"Yes, of course... only, why?"
"Well, if everybody knew that there were aliens they might try and help us research or defend against them."
"Errr.... why don't we want that?"
"Errumm...well, just general, well, it's nice to have secrets, isn't it?"

Who gains from keeping Bigfoot hidden?

How on earth did they manage to get almost the entire community of world-wide scientists - a figure in the millions - to sign up to faking all modern science - particle physics, cosmology, archaeology, chemistry, biochemistry, genetics and all the other stuff that goes into proving that the earth isn't 6000 years old?

Why would there be a world-wide conspiracy of 99% of major archaeologists, historians and geologists to cover up all the drawings of aliens, huge cities, buried stargates and so on?

Much as I loved the series, that was one of my uncertainties about the old Stargate series. By the end of it - something like 15 years of time - tens or hundreds of thousands of soldiers must have cycled through Stargate Command, been crews aboard human warships, inhabited Atlantis, received alien tech to examine, worked in companies providing equipment for the SGC, etc etc etc. It's like imagining that the recent war in Afghanistan wasn't against the Afghanis or Islamic fundamentalists, but against a huge alien invasion force based out of a landed 10-mile wide alien mothership, and it's all been covered up. Those weren't IED injuries - they were plasma burns. And it's all being hushed up
[takes a quick note, that might make an interesting premise for a novel - The Camouflaged War ]


Sometimes it's best to take the most straightforward solution to a question until the bulk of evidence points otherwise. It's the basis of science. One start with the "things fall towards the ground" theory of gravity. Then one gets the Newtonian moment of being able to describe how it falls. Then when the measurements show that it's not completely accurate you get the Einsteinian version, which is more accurate and might have the beginnings of a idea on why things fall. One day we'll go beyond that as well.
What we didn't do was say "It's Aliens At The Center Of The Earth With Big Magnets!!!!" or "Goddidit!" The Theory of Intelligent Falling is not a good one.

It's the same with so-called ancient mysteries. People gather data, form hypotheses and attempt to provide explanations that best fit that data. It's not all going to be right. Some dates will be out. Some estimated migration patterns will be off. Sometimes we're going to miss things, like a more advanced sail plan or hull design than was the norm for the time, or a more advanced form of iron than expected, or a more civilised city or tribe eventually wiped out by local barbarians. What's unlikely to be missed is signs of very high tech. If we abandoned London or New York for twenty thousand years, there would still be some signs. If you add in alien level super-tech as well then it would be worse.

After all, if every stone in the pyramids was laser-trimmed to micron-levels of smoothness - or had been taken from granite quarries in England - then you'd be looking at serious levels of evidence that there was extra-terrestrial activity.

Evidence, lots of it, repeatable, verifiable and peer-reviewed, please.

Oh, and scientists don't seek the status quo and reject anything new. They desperately want to find the new, the different, the ground-breaking, the exciting. They dream of being the one who changes how the world is seen. It just have to be solid, and when it gets peer reviewed and repeated, other scientists have to get the same result.

Archaeologists examining building sites in London discovered telephone lines a foot underground, and thus concluded that the British had telephony tech. From there to New York where they discovered optical fibre a metre down so the Americans had internet capability.
The big sensation was when examining ancient Australian Aboriginal settlements they dug down to ten metres and found nothing. The headlines said Australian Aboriginals in the Dreamtime had Wireless Technology.

More seriously well said Petercharters.

There doesn't seem to be an actual 200,000 ton stone block in the book (there's a free PDF version, with lots of weird 'energy fields from the pyramids' stuff.) There is a mention of a 20,000 ton stone at Sacsayhuaman in Peru but all the references for it elsewhere go back to Daniken. Closest I could find to that number from actual research was the claims that the site had been built by 20,000-30,000 people ending in 1508. There was a picture elsewhere that seems to be claiming it's the stone, but matches exactly a 1000-ton stone at Baalbeck. Which he also mentions as 'impossible to move', I believe. It's also still sitting in its quarry, so maybe the people who cut it agreed. He also seems to be impressed that the Peruvians used cement, just like most other ancient civilizations did. It's simple to make, why not use it? He mentions a diorite block hollowed out in Egypt as 'easily as butter', without giving evidence they did it easily. He basically mentions every construction story he can find from sacred texts as being verifiably true WITHOUT EVIDENCE. Might be able to get some good story ideas from it though, if you don't giggle too much.

Let's turn the argument around and say what happens to a more primitive society that meets a more technological advanced society. The primitive society totally disappears. So what would you do to prevent your world and culture(s) from being swallowed up by a more advanced alien society and culture.

So, you don't believe in ET's. Hmm, billions of galaxies some hundred, thousands, and/or million of years older. I believe life is abundant throughout the galaxies. Let's put a limit on the number for this discussion, let's say there is only 1 planet per galaxy that has all the right conditions to develop and substain life. That leaves a whole a lot of planets with life on them. Many of these planets will be so far ahead of Earth, their technology will appear to be magic to many people. Would you keep an eye on your galactic neighbors that have obtained nuclear weapons? I certainly would keep an eye on my local neighbors for self defense reasons.

I could conceive of the reasons on hiding the truth from the public. What lengths would you go to protect the whole world?



The Phoenix lights were witnessed over 10 hours that day over Arizona. You have multiple radio calls of the ATC channels about this incident. The conclusion of the event was someone sending a message to our government. I know our government could not keep that a secret. Wrong! Wrong! Wrong! A government can keep a secret when it chooses to. Remember, we only hear of their failures and not their successes of keeping info secret.

petercharters wrote:I always have a problem with the whole "conspiracy theory" approach to life.

I can imagine that there are indeed plenty of conspiracies involving getting re-elected, removing political opponents, winning contracts, embezzling public finances and so on.

I can believe that there are organisations such as the Vatican that are sitting on many tons of old documents (or destroyed them years ago) to prevent there being evidence that contradicts their doctrine. Just as there are banks and financial institutions that really, really don't want all their complete books and records explored and audited.

Military secrets, secret stealth aircraft or internet surveillance programs? Sure.
Though note that even the largest, most organised, most secret program in the world, run by the NSA, still got revealed and plastered across the world's media.

However, there are just too many "conspiracies" I have to just ask "Why? Who gains from turning this into a big conspiracy"

Why is there a big conspiracy to cover up the existence of the Loch Ness monster instead of turning it into a seriously major tourist attraction?

How did they manage to fake the Apollo moon landings - after all, there are a few problems in faking it. Here
- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P6MOnehCOUw

Why would they cover up the existence of scary aliens?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DYd82RLymEw%20?
"So as you know we just discovered the existence of aliens due to that spaceship with aliens in that crashed and they've got super-advanced technology and it's all massively frightening."
"So, what's the plan?"
"Well, keep it all secret, obviously, if at all possible"
"Yes, of course... only, why?"
"Well, if everybody knew that there were aliens they might try and help us research or defend against them."
"Errr.... why don't we want that?"
"Errumm...well, just general, well, it's nice to have secrets, isn't it?"

Who gains from keeping Bigfoot hidden?

How on earth did they manage to get almost the entire community of world-wide scientists - a figure in the millions - to sign up to faking all modern science - particle physics, cosmology, archaeology, chemistry, biochemistry, genetics and all the other stuff that goes into proving that the earth isn't 6000 years old?

Why would there be a world-wide conspiracy of 99% of major archaeologists, historians and geologists to cover up all the drawings of aliens, huge cities, buried stargates and so on?

Much as I loved the series, that was one of my uncertainties about the old Stargate series. By the end of it - something like 15 years of time - tens or hundreds of thousands of soldiers must have cycled through Stargate Command, been crews aboard human warships, inhabited Atlantis, received alien tech to examine, worked in companies providing equipment for the SGC, etc etc etc. It's like imagining that the recent war in Afghanistan wasn't against the Afghanis or Islamic fundamentalists, but against a huge alien invasion force based out of a landed 10-mile wide alien mothership, and it's all been covered up. Those weren't IED injuries - they were plasma burns. And it's all being hushed up
[takes a quick note, that might make an interesting premise for a novel - The Camouflaged War ]


Sometimes it's best to take the most straightforward solution to a question until the bulk of evidence points otherwise. It's the basis of science. One start with the "things fall towards the ground" theory of gravity. Then one gets the Newtonian moment of being able to describe how it falls. Then when the measurements show that it's not completely accurate you get the Einsteinian version, which is more accurate and might have the beginnings of a idea on why things fall. One day we'll go beyond that as well.
What we didn't do was say "It's Aliens At The Center Of The Earth With Big Magnets!!!!" or "Goddidit!" The Theory of Intelligent Falling is not a good one.

It's the same with so-called ancient mysteries. People gather data, form hypotheses and attempt to provide explanations that best fit that data. It's not all going to be right. Some dates will be out. Some estimated migration patterns will be off. Sometimes we're going to miss things, like a more advanced sail plan or hull design than was the norm for the time, or a more advanced form of iron than expected, or a more civilised city or tribe eventually wiped out by local barbarians. What's unlikely to be missed is signs of very high tech. If we abandoned London or New York for twenty thousand years, there would still be some signs. If you add in alien level super-tech as well then it would be worse.

After all, if every stone in the pyramids was laser-trimmed to micron-levels of smoothness - or had been taken from granite quarries in England - then you'd be looking at serious levels of evidence that there was extra-terrestrial activity.

Evidence, lots of it, repeatable, verifiable and peer-reviewed, please.

Oh, and scientists don't seek the status quo and reject anything new. They desperately want to find the new, the different, the ground-breaking, the exciting. They dream of being the one who changes how the world is seen. It just have to be solid, and when it gets peer reviewed and repeated, other scientists have to get the same result.

smr wrote:Let's turn the argument around and say what happens to a more primitive society that meets a more technological advanced society. The primitive society totally disappears. So what would you do to prevent your world and culture(s) from being swallowed up by a more advanced alien society and culture.

Iain Banks called this an "Outside Context Problem", which in his words, "civilizations encountered in much the same way a sentence encounters a full stop." The point is, there is nothing you can do to prevent your society from being changed, sometimes in ways that make it completely unrecognizable. Trying to keep a culture static is impossible in the face of overwhelming evidence that there are other ways of living.

So, you don't believe in ET's. Hmm, billions of galaxies some hundred, thousands, and/or million of years older. I believe life is abundant throughout the galaxies. Let's put a limit on the number for this discussion, let's say there is only 1 planet per galaxy that has all the right conditions to develop and substain life. That leaves a whole a lot of planets with life on them. Many of these planets will be so far ahead of Earth, their technology will appear to be magic to many people. Would you keep an eye on your galactic neighbors that have obtained nuclear weapons? I certainly would keep an eye on my local neighbors for self defense reasons.

Welcome to the Fermi Paradox. Yes, even if we put extremely low numbers on the numbers of planets capable of bearing life comparable to ours, the massive size of our universe will ensure that there will be something out there. However, that does not mean that these aliens are a) Technologically superior to us, b) able to be aware of us, c) able and willing to reach us. Those are unsustainable assumptions you are making based on a few phenomena you believe can only be explained by aliens interfering in our affairs.

I could conceive of the reasons on hiding the truth from the public. What lengths would you go to protect the whole world?

But that's the problem: A civilization capable of FTL travel, or willing to slowboat it across the lightyears, has no need for subtlety. If they wanted to make their presence known, they would be able to do so in pretty unambiguous ways, so either they don't want to do that for some inexplicable reason, or the phenomena you see alien activity in can be explained through other means.

The Phoenix lights were witnessed over 10 hours that day over Arizona. You have multiple radio calls of the ATC channels about this incident. The conclusion of the event was someone sending a message to our government. I know our government could not keep that a secret. Wrong! Wrong! Wrong! A government can keep a secret when it chooses to. Remember, we only hear of their failures and not their successes of keeping info secret.

Okay. Here's something you should think about. Over the past decade, we have seen a massive increase in the number of high-quality cameras available to the general public. Anyone owning a smartphone has recording capabilities far in advance of anything a 1990s-vintage UFOlogist could ever dream of. However, we have so far not seen an uptick in UFO sightings or recordings that would indicate that these events are as common as the alien conspiracy crowd would have us believe.

I just look at present day technology, in the past year we have demonstrations of vehicles mimicking their environment. See Mercedes Bends for a demonstration...they used LED to mimic the background. Now advance this technology by a hundred years....a thousands years (this was just civilian technology). If their is alien life out their, I would observe our culture and world just for pure self-defense reasons (their are other reasons to observe the culture and society besides self-defense reasons). We have numerous examples from famous art to caveman paintings to something outside our planet observing us. Take what happened in last year or two, we had a huge solar flare that one of satellites or spacecraft that took pictures of an unidentified object directing in path of the solar flare. It appeared that the solar flare went around the vehicle due to some type of shield. That incident made National and World news. Personally, I very skeptical of individuals making claims of aliens and abduction. If life developed here and on Mars then the conclusion is that life developed elsewhere. Mars has been proven conclusively to have at least have bacterial life at one time. It use to have running water. As far as traveling to stars, just because I can not conceive how they travel galactic distances. It does not mean it's not possible. Just like we never thought we break the sound barrier. What if we figure out how manipulate time, then traveling long distances would be possible. That's just off the top of my head. One question, why would an alien presence want the whole world to know that their here. Think of the ramifications that would cause. I think we have back engineered technology that came from another planet. I suspect that we have vehicles that can go throughout the solar system. Many of the UFO reports are probably of our own technology. I can neither prove or disprove that the Earth is being visited and that's how our government(s) like it. If a alien race can turn off/turn on our nuclear silo's, I think they could manipulate a simple cell phone. The problem is overwhelming evidence of ufo's. What the real problem is determining what's real and what's a fraud?

The E wrote:

smr wrote:Let's turn the argument around and say what happens to a more primitive society that meets a more technological advanced society. The primitive society totally disappears. So what would you do to prevent your world and culture(s) from being swallowed up by a more advanced alien society and culture.

Iain Banks called this an "Outside Context Problem", which in his words, "civilizations encountered in much the same way a sentence encounters a full stop." The point is, there is nothing you can do to prevent your society from being changed, sometimes in ways that make it completely unrecognizable. Trying to keep a culture static is impossible in the face of overwhelming evidence that there are other ways of living.

So, you don't believe in ET's. Hmm, billions of galaxies some hundred, thousands, and/or million of years older. I believe life is abundant throughout the galaxies. Let's put a limit on the number for this discussion, let's say there is only 1 planet per galaxy that has all the right conditions to develop and substain life. That leaves a whole a lot of planets with life on them. Many of these planets will be so far ahead of Earth, their technology will appear to be magic to many people. Would you keep an eye on your galactic neighbors that have obtained nuclear weapons? I certainly would keep an eye on my local neighbors for self defense reasons.

Welcome to the Fermi Paradox. Yes, even if we put extremely low numbers on the numbers of planets capable of bearing life comparable to ours, the massive size of our universe will ensure that there will be something out there. However, that does not mean that these aliens are a) Technologically superior to us, b) able to be aware of us, c) able and willing to reach us. Those are unsustainable assumptions you are making based on a few phenomena you believe can only be explained by aliens interfering in our affairs.

I could conceive of the reasons on hiding the truth from the public. What lengths would you go to protect the whole world?

But that's the problem: A civilization capable of FTL travel, or willing to slowboat it across the lightyears, has no need for subtlety. If they wanted to make their presence known, they would be able to do so in pretty unambiguous ways, so either they don't want to do that for some inexplicable reason, or the phenomena you see alien activity in can be explained through other means.

The Phoenix lights were witnessed over 10 hours that day over Arizona. You have multiple radio calls of the ATC channels about this incident. The conclusion of the event was someone sending a message to our government. I know our government could not keep that a secret. Wrong! Wrong! Wrong! A government can keep a secret when it chooses to. Remember, we only hear of their failures and not their successes of keeping info secret.

Okay. Here's something you should think about. Over the past decade, we have seen a massive increase in the number of high-quality cameras available to the general public. Anyone owning a smartphone has recording capabilities far in advance of anything a 1990s-vintage UFOlogist could ever dream of. However, we have so far not seen an uptick in UFO sightings or recordings that would indicate that these events are as common as the alien conspiracy crowd would have us believe.

smr wrote:I just look at present day technology, in the past year we have demonstrations of vehicles mimicking their environment. See Mercedes Bends for a demonstration...they used LED to mimic the background. Now advance this technology by a hundred years....a thousands years (this was just civilian technology). If their is alien life out their, I would observe our culture and world just for pure self-defense reasons (their are other reasons to observe the culture and society besides self-defense reasons).

Let us stop right there. Let us examine what must be true for such an observer to exist.

1. There has to be an interstellar civilization whose sphere of influence intersects with the sphere of lightspeed transmissions coming off of Earth that are unambiguously the product of sentient beings. In other words, a sphere roughly 70 or 80 light years in diameter.
2. Said civilization must have the ability to travel at FTL speeds.
3. Said civilization must be sufficiently interested in our progress to continually monitor it under conditions of stealth.

These are all suppositions you make blindly, without corroborating evidence, purely based on your interpretation of events people say they have witnessed. You are basing this assumption on tales that haven't been verified in any substantial way.

We have numerous examples from famous art to caveman paintings to something outside our planet observing us.

...in your interpretation, that is. You do not have solid data beyond that to actually make a solid case for it.

Take what happened in last year or two, we had a huge solar flare that one of satellites or spacecraft that took pictures of an unidentified object directing in path of the solar flare.

Really? You're talking about this, right? I mean, sure, it could be a UFO. Or, it could be a common occurrence on the suns' surface, which we have witnessed quite a few times and have a pretty good theoretical understanding of.
See, you choose to believe in UFOs because that's infinitely more exciting than what is the equivalent of a geysir breaking out. That does not mean however that your belief is based in fact. You (specifically including the entire UFO conspiracy community) are making extraordinary claims, but it seems that you can't actually produce a consistent argument why this MUST be UFOs except "The scientists that said it was just solar weather are obviously hiding something!"

It appeared that the solar flare went around the vehicle due to some type of shield. That incident made National and World news.

Uhhh, yeah. We call that the Earth's Magnetosphere. Completely natural phenomenon, has made life on Earth possible for eons.

Personally, I very skeptical of individuals making claims of aliens and abduction.

But it also seems that you are even more skeptical of regular scientists, would that be a fair assessment of your positions?

If life developed here and on Mars then the conclusion is that life developed elsewhere. Mars has been proven conclusively to have at least have bacterial life at one time. It use to have running water. As far as traveling to stars, just because I can not conceive how they travel galactic distances. It does not mean it's not possible.

Sure, there could be any number of ways to travel at FTL speeds. But there also could be none, and as far as we can tell, that possibility is very likely.

Just like we never thought we break the sound barrier.

You are conflating two very different scales here. Noone who knew anything about the topic ever doubted that travel faster than the speed of sound is possible. The case against FTL travel is much stronger.

What if we figure out how manipulate time, then traveling long distances would be possible.

Any faster than light travel is functionally indistinguishable from time travel. See also: Theory of special relativity.

That's just off the top of my head. One question, why would an alien presence want the whole world to know that their here. Think of the ramifications that would cause. I think we have back engineered technology that came from another planet.

Like, for example? We have pretty well documented chains of discovery for every single major and minor innovation that entered usage in the past; claiming that parts of it are based on alien donations requires you to provide supporting evidence for it.

I suspect that we have vehicles that can go throughout the solar system.

Sure we do. We call them Satellites and probes. We've been launching hundreds of them, and used them to get data on almost every major planetary body in the system. Again, if you want to claim that there is more advanced tech available, you need to provide evidence for it.

Many of the UFO reports are probably of our own technology. I can neither prove or disprove that the Earth is being visited and that's how our government(s) like it.

Let me recap here: You are postulating that there is an advanced alien civilization out there, one that has visited us in the recent past, one that is capable of interstellar travel, one that has managed to convince every single government on Earth of even minor influence and interest in the space race into keeping it all quiet, one that is occasionally breaking its silence to make cryptic appearances, and one that has donated tech to us. You are also postulating that the various Governments all have a stake in keeping this as quiet as possible, over a series of major political upheavals, across changing governments, and an evolving culture of increased information sharing. You are saying that this conspiracy is both incredibly efficient at maintaining that secrecy, but not efficient enough to stop people like you from figuring out the truth.

Human beings, in general, are not THAT good at keeping secrets.

If a alien race can turn off/turn on our nuclear silo's,

Citation needed.

I think they could manipulate a simple cell phone.

But apparently Camcorders are beyond their power? Wait, hang on, I think I figured it out: Maybe the alien control rays do not work on cameras that are cheap, being shaken around, and held by people with no understanding of science!

The problem is overwhelming evidence of ufo's. What the real problem is determining what's real and what's a fraud?

Well, simple guideline: if someone tries to sell a book, or a TV show, with the tagline "The secret origins of <x>", they're probably far away from the truth. If the tagline starts "Science can't explain...", they're very probably wrong.

You claim "overwhelming evidence", but there isn't any. By your own admission, you can't prove that we are being visited. If you really had overwhelming evidence, that would not be a problem. But instead, you are seeing random dots and connecting them to get to the conclusion that aliens exist; You are a victim of confirmation bias, in other words, instead of the proper scientific way of continually questioning your assumptions, you are starting out with an assumption (Like, Aliens exist. Or that the biblical Flood happened. Or that there have been technological civilizations in geological time), and then you are looking to confirm it. Have you ever tried disproving your assumptions?