BB(P/C) for rear area security

Positroll wrote:- I think the billions of citizens in the Talbott quadrant might feel a Little different about that (as evidenced in the opposition to Mike Henke's deployment decisions) and request that if Manticore gets protected by hundreds of hypercapable ships, they should get at least a couple of BBs - or SD(P) if BBs don't exist ...

Of course they will. But they're not going to get it, and they know it. What they are going to get instead is LAC squadrons (aka stuff that they can train their own people on so that they can get to RMN standards of proficiency), and a few regular system defense pods, as well as courier boats to summon nodal forces. Maintaining force concentration is important in the honorverse, deploying BatCruDivs or BatDivs may look good on paper, but just opens you up to defeat in detail.

It's also important to note Tenth Fleet's dispositions and attitudes. From SoF Chapter 7:

"After careful consideration, we've concluded that the best use of our current forces will be to cover each system of the Quadrant with four or five LAC squadrons for local defense, backed up by a couple of dispatch boats. The LACs should be more than adequate to deal with any 'pirate' stupid enough to come this way, and given what we've seen of SLN technology, they also ought to be able to deal with any Solly raiding force that doesn't include a core of capital ships. Given Crandall's losses, it's unlikely there are enough Solarian capital ships anywhere near the Quadrant to provide that kind of force. Obviously, that's subject to change — possibly without much warning — but even in a worst-case scenario, the local-defense LACs should be able to at least delay and harass any attackers while one of the dispatch boats goes for help.

"I realize there's been some thought of splitting up our own capital ships in order to give our star systems greater protection."

<snip>

"There are several reasons we're not proposing to do that," Michelle continued. "The two most important ones, though, are that dispersing our capital ships wouldn't provide any appreciable increase in system security against the sort of attack which hit the home system, but it would disperse the powerful, concentrated striking forces it's vital to maintain to respond to any fresh Solarian activity in our area.

"At the moment, the Admiralty and ONI are still working on how the Yawata Strike was launched. From the information available so far, Admiral Hemphill is more convinced than ever the attack relied on a new, previously unknown drive technology. In effect, we believe the attackers were 'invisible' to our normal tracking systems. So far, at least, no one's been able to suggest how whatever drive they used might work or how we might go about figuring out how to detect it in the future. In the meantime, however, analysis also suggests the attackers were probably operating in relatively small forces, relying on their cloak of invisibility rather than raw combat power. I realize that may sound absurd, given the damage inflicted, but I assure you that if a single podnought — or even a couple of Nike-class battlecruisers — had been able to get into range of the inner system totally undetected, that would have been ample to have inflicted all of that damage.

"My point is that the problem in Manticore wasn't lack of combat power or lack of defenses; it was the inability to see the enemy coming. Scattering wallers around the Quadrant's star systems isn't going to appreciably increase our ability to detect these people. We can deploy enough remote sensor platforms — in fact, we're already in the process of deploying them — to give each of our systems more detection capability than an entire squadron of SDs could provide. The LACs will give us large numbers of manned combat platforms to chase down and prosecute possible contacts; the dispatch boats will be available to send for help in the case of an attack in strength; and we'll be deploying enough missile pods in planetary orbit to provide the long-range missile firepower of at least a pair of SD(P)s in each system. We won't have the sort of sustained firepower superdreadnoughts could provide, or the area missile defense they could offer, but we'll have enough to deal with anything short of a Solly battle squadron, assuming we see it coming."

So:

1) This maximizes the economy of hulls while
2) Retaining a concentrated force for offense or defense deployment, but still
3) Compels the SLN to deploy truly heavy forces in order to punch out any system.

And this is all without additional help from the Home System or Haven. With the Grand Alliance now active, they can also deploy even more assets like Moriarty or Mycroft and really put the screws on a Sollie attacker. As for any Alignment attack, Tenth Fleet's officers are of the opinion that there's nothing worth attacking in the Talbott quadrant. Even if there were, they've deployed enough sensor assets to at least get a warning.

Positroll wrote:But, as that post points out, the build time requirements for a BB are similar to those of a real Waller. You are proposing a design with a useful lifetime of a few short years, after which it becomes obsolete again due to a changed threat environment.

I really don't think they'd become obsolete soon - as a pod design, they can always add the newest missiles just by excachanging the pods.
Timewise, we don't know how long it takes for the SL to self-destoy. If they concentrate on keeping the core together while only doing some raiding in verge and GA, they might last a while - or not.

They will be obsolete against near peers, and those near peers will be coming off the building ways within the next five to ten years. The BB-P won't have the defensive depth or capability of a DN-P or a SD-P of roughly the same technology, and it is too big and expensive to build in the numbers of a BC-L. If you're worried about BC-Ls and BC-Ps raiding, a mixed squadron of NIKES and Aggs will eat a division of BB-Ps for lunch (assuming same tech)

Positroll wrote:(I am rather sure a similar idea has been discussed here before - just couldn't find it ... so if there is a preexisting thread, any mod should feel free to transfer this post over there ...)

2) What does a BB)P/C look like
a)Size: Close to 4 mio tons

b) Stern: similar to Agammemnon, but bigger and with Mk 23 Apollo missile pods - to fight raiding BCs at a large distance if needed (e.g. jump in behind a raiding force that is making its way towards Montana from the hyperlimit - Sollies will be cought between the missiles from orbiting sysdefpods and those from the BB).

c) Front: Similar to Nike, with the new and improved Mk 16s to fight BCs that made it through the Mk 23s and smaller raiding Forces (where you can afford to conserve the more expensive Mk 23s). This gives the BB the sustained firepower that the current BC(P) lack.

d) In the middle: a small carrier element.
- a oversized boat bay, lenghtwise at the underside of the BB, lenght: >2 LAC / 1 frigate (re-designed Nat Turner or a new design?), with docking/rearming space for 4 LACs or 2 LACS and one FF).
- docking hardpoints at the exterior of the BB to carry another 8 LACs (or 6 LACS and 1 NT or 4/2). This allows the LAC crews to travel inside the BB during Transit / while on station and reduces their need for bunkerage, esp since the LACs will get their energy from the BB while docked.
- at least 4 of the LACs are Katanas to improve missile defense and normally stay with the BBThoughts?

A creative Man-Dog-Pig

But why? You're planning to use this ship as a rear area security vessel. That implies it is part of the regular logistics network and the system that it is operating in is Alliance controlled. These assumptions go against the design elements.

Making it a Mk-23 firing pod layer makes some sense in terms of bringing the biggest gun to the gun fight, although near peer BC-Ps could bring FTL controlled MDM pods to the fight as well. More of them, or behind better armor makes some sense.

Mk-16s up front -- giving up the biggest gun does not make a lot of sense as the ammo constraint for multiple engagements is weaker. If the RMN controls the system, setting up a resupply cache is plausible if you're worried about multiple raiding squadrons over a couple of weeks. Further more, if facing a very tough opponent, or a dispersed opponent in decent strength, splitting the main armament makes syncronizing strikes much more difficult (see Solon for an example of the problems coordinating Mk-16 and Mk-23 fire, also see problems the last of the pre-dreadnoughts had with fire control as their main battery of 12 inch guns would create splashes that were similiar enough to the secondary battery of 9.2 inch guns that fire control was a pain in the ass)

And then add in LACs --- thankfully you're not adding in multiple squadrons of LACs or a few divison of frigates (BTW, I think the volume cost of a Nat TUrner is more than 2x Shrike, but that is a minor nitpick). But why?

If the RMN controls the system, then LACs can base off of local platforms. The frigates (let's not get into the argument as to why the RMN should not build frigates, or at least frigates smaller than a Roland when facing near peers) are self-deployable. Sure, use the big ship as a quasi tender (see US destroyers using US battleships as fast oilers in the SW Pacific or US destroyers and submarines ransoming rescued fliers for ice cream from the fliers' home carrier for example) but don't compromise their war fighting ability to support a miniscule force. If they need LACs, deploy the LACs from the home base and train to fight as an integrated team.

I think that the existing BC(P)s with limpeted Mk-23 pods and may be internal Mk-16 pods would fill this roll just fine.

Of course the RMN needs to rediscover the hardpoint and the extension cord.

namelessfly wrote:I think that the existing BC(P)s with limpeted Mk-23 pods and may be internal Mk-16 pods would fill this roll just fine.

Of course the RMN needs to rediscover the hardpoint and the extension cord.

Indeed. Though the BC(L) is essentially a modern BB.

kzt wrote:Indeed. Though the BC(L) is essentially a modern BB.

And the Roland is a modern battleship for Travis Long. Obviously both are stupid comparisons. The tools may change, but the relative utility and definition of the type has not. The Nike-class is a battlecruiser for the 20th century PD, not a battleship.

You guys got me almost convinced.
But not yet 100% ...

Here is why:

I think where I differ most is the timeframe. You guys are making good arguments about why we don't need them right now (Nikes and Aggs suffice) and why in the long run economically we will be better off with SDs. But to quote Krugman quoting Keynes: in the long run we (the GA) will all be DEAD, if the SL doesn't crumble as hoped for.
The real fight between the SL and the GA will start once the SL starts to build lots of new, redesigned BCs with seriously improved internal missiles. The needed research takes a while - enough, imO to design + build hte BBs. And since the new Solly ships will be designed to fight GA ships as they are known (i.e. with 40 mio missile range, instead of the the real >80 mio), BB(P)s with 3 stage MDMs will be perfectly able to kick Solly backsides for quite a while.
Consider: what the Sollies will develop now, is something along the lines of what Haven had towards the end of the war with the SEM. Guess what: they'll still be screwed when they come up against Apollo, just like Haven was when they were up against 8th fleet. The difference is, the Sollies don't know that, yet ...

Sure, we can hope that political instability will bring the SL down on its own. But I wouldn't bet my existance on it if I were the SEm or RH.
I'd like to refer you back to the big Mantie discussion on how to survive a war with the huge SL and the strategy proposed by HH. The key is to split off as many verge + shell systems from the league as possible, and get parts of the core to basically agree to what amounts to non-agression pacts.

Problem: we are talking about a LOT of star systems - which means more BBs are better than fewer SDs in order to rapidly gain control over a big number of star systems (I'll refrain from mentioning that RFC almost never deploys SDs on their own (Cutworm being a possible exception - oh and cleaning up Monica ...); that made sense for traditional wallers but wrt modern SD(P)s ... - so introducing BBs could counter that tendency ... ).

Sure, some of them will easily welcome the GA and some aren't threatend by the SL after the GA moves in.
But there will be loads of others that
(1) need to be convinced that the SL won't come back and role over them
(2) aren't to be trusted with Mantie high tech (i.e. installing Mycroft in their star system is out)
(3) need to be awed by some serious fighting power (and a BB stationed in system looks more impressive than a bunch of Rolands ...)
(4) don't want the GA to take over their space statiosn to station LACs


@Duck
Um sorry, but the argument "there is no room for a LAC bay" doesn't hold water imO - it's just a question of how much space that could be used for pods instead you are willing to sacrifice, and in a 4 mio ton hull, there should be plenty of room for 4 LACs while still hauling way more pods than an Aggie. Also, the magazine space for the Mk 16s can be reduced compared to the Nikes, since for the BBs its only their secondary armament ...


@fester
a) RFC has repeatedly mentioned the need to improve antimissile defenses by moving the envelope of interception outward. I think having its own LACs, esp Katanas, aboard will do so (and remember, the BB would usually prowl at thehyperlimit where it can micro-jump in behind a raiding force - so there often are no station based LACs available for the job)
b) Regarding FFs, I would imagine that the GA will build a few for covert operations against the MA (you can bring them into a system piggybacking on a merchy, run very stealthy and once their job is completed, they do a undiscovered upwards translation into hyper). With the new sneak drive, they will be faster than current courier ships, and they will be armed. BTW, the BB shall only be ABLE to carry FFs - doesn't mean it usually carries them, even though I think having one of them around could be handy in many situations.


P.S. All that said, it's not my universe, so if RFC doesn't think BBs make sense we wont see any ...

BTW, is there a good discussion of the next RMN light cruiser (improved Avalon?) somewhere on this board?
I could only find occasional nods toward the topic ...

Positroll wrote:@Duck
Um sorry, but the argument "there is no room for a LAC bay" doesn't hold water imO - it's just a question of how much space that could be used for pods instead you are willing to sacrifice, and in a 4 mio ton hull, there should be plenty of room for 4 LACs while still hauling way more pods than an Aggie. Also, the magazine space for the Mk 16s can be reduced compared to the Nikes, since for the BBs its only their secondary armament ...

Yes a 4 mton hull sounds like it's got a lot of room. But compare the beam of even the 6 mton Mintoaur-class CLAC to the length of two Katanas. The LACs alone stretch 142 m into the 189 m wide hull; leaving only 47 meters for LAC bay hatches, docking buffers, ammo tubes, personnel tubes; leaving very little room for the things that normally go in the middle of a starship. (Crew quarters, fusion reactors, ammo magazines, etc, etc)

The closest we've got in HoS to a 4 mton ship is the 3.8 mton Ad Astra-class DN; with a beam of 154 m. Put a pair of LAC bays on on the broadsides and you've got only 12 m clearance between the LACs' noses. Yeah that puts a massive crimp on the space. And like Duckk said, the pod bay after is already displacing ship systems forward and hullward; adding LAC bays, even to a 4 mton ship just compromise its usable and protected volume that much more. And if you tried to put armor cofferdaming around the bays; wow total lack of space. But if you don't then they're gaping deep vulnerabilities in it's armor protection. (Which is why CLACs now hang back and try not to go into a missile duel, because despite all their active defenses they're hideously vulnerable to any hits which do get through.