BC(P)s at Sidemore

I will have to reread WoH, but I am wondering how much of aforce multiplier the BC(P)s that were deployed with the Protector's Own were in the battle of Sidemore.

We have all thrashed the issue of BC(P) survivability and combat endurance. I am not disputing this point or wanting to debate it again.

However; there have been discussions about why the Havenite fleet did not focus its firepower on the advanced but numerically inferior GSN fleet before finishing off Honor's somewhat obsolescent fleet. I do not recall if Weber's account provided details. However; the presence of BC(P)s would substantially increase the offensive firepower of the GSN fleet, perhaps causing the RHN to overestimate their numbers?

This gives me an excuse to reread the book again.

Tourville & Co had spent over an hour setting their Aim
at Honor's fleet. When they were surprised, they shot at
what they were aiming at: a standard training policy.

Then too, Yu's new ships had the best missile defenses,
so they were a harder target.

And the range to Yu's ships was long (by previous
standards that Haven tac officers still remembered).

In retrospect we might say that Haven would have done
better to begin by shooting at the smaller and closer
target, whose own missiles would begin reaching them
three minutes before Honor's would,
but that is only our guess,
and it is not as if any of us have gamed it out.

HTM

namelessfly wrote:[snip]
However; there have been discussions about why the Havenite fleet did not focus its firepower on the advanced but numerically inferior GSN fleet before finishing off Honor's somewhat obsolescent fleet. I do not recall if Weber's account provided details. However; the presence of BC(P)s would substantially increase the offensive firepower of the GSN fleet, perhaps causing the RHN to overestimate their numbers?

This gives me an excuse to reread the book again.

Hopefully, runsforcelery will weigh in on this.

From HoS, The number of active defenses of a Courvosier II BC(p) are almost identical to a non-Upgraded Bellerophon DN. Of course this is assuming both have the same model of PDs (Bellerophons may have larger clusters) and fire the same mk of CM (Courvosier II probably fire Mk 31 CMs with extended range, while Bellerophons probably still were limited to the standard mk 29s.)

And the Bellerophons were remarked as having superior active weapons and defenses than all Manticorian SDs prior to the Victory Class, despite it being a sub-7Mton DN.

So defensively, The Grayson formation was even stronger than it appeared, with all the BC(p)s actually being superior to 11 of Honor's ships in every category but damage absorption and endurance.

Howard T. Map-addict wrote:Tourville & Co had spent over an hour setting their Aim
at Honor's fleet. When they were surprised, they shot at
what they were aiming at: a standard training policy.

Then too, Yu's new ships had the best missile defenses,
so they were a harder target.

And the range to Yu's ships was long (by previous
standards that Haven tac officers still remembered).

In retrospect we might say that Haven would have done
better to begin by shooting at the smaller and closer
target, whose own missiles would begin reaching them
three minutes before Honor's would,
but that is only our guess,
and it is not as if any of us have gamed it out.

HTM

namelessfly wrote:[snip]
However; there have been discussions about why the Havenite fleet did not focus its firepower on the advanced but numerically inferior GSN fleet before finishing off Honor's somewhat obsolescent fleet. I do not recall if Weber's account provided details. However; the presence of BC(P)s would substantially increase the offensive firepower of the GSN fleet, perhaps causing the RHN to overestimate their numbers?

This gives me an excuse to reread the book again.

The Havenite fleet simply wasn't prepared for the inclusion of the Protector's Own. Their force was more than sufficient to destroy (or so they assumed) the relatively obsolete force at Sidemore. They were not prepared to engage a force that had much closer parity in terms of size and weight. Remember, much of Honor's Wall consisted of dangerously obsolete DNs, not even SDs. The force was considered expendable in terms of metal, even though it was incredibly stupid and shortsighted considering how many personnel are on each individual SD and DN.

Basically, they had planned on engaging a force with a limited ability to shoot back in what they thought were overwhelming numbers, and ended up with a force that had outnumbered them in terms of SD(P)s, which is a losing proposition for almost any formation. Javier Giskard backed out of a fight at Trevor's Star because he wasn't sure he could inflict enough damage to the combined Allied fleets at Trevor's Star to be worth it, despite a small numerical advantage.

You also have to remember that all the sensor data was also pointing the wrong way. The Protector's Own had excellent data on all incoming Havenite ships thanks to the FTL coms, as well as knowing almost exactly the heading they were coming in on. While the BC(P)'s are indeed a lighter, easier-to-kill unit, they didn't have the data on the force because they had been refining their solutions for Honor's fleet, not Yu's. Nor were they really aware of just how effective they were. In the end, Tourville was basically stuck with his ass hanging out, and his guns were pointed in the wrong direction.

Uroboros wrote:The Havenite fleet simply wasn't prepared for the inclusion of the Protector's Own. Their force was more than sufficient to destroy (or so they assumed) the relatively obsolete force at Sidemore. They were not prepared to engage a force that had much closer parity in terms of size and weight. Remember, much of Honor's Wall consisted of dangerously obsolete DNs, not even SDs. The force was considered expendable in terms of metal, even though it was incredibly stupid and shortsighted considering how many personnel are on each individual SD and DN.

Basically, they had planned on engaging a force with a limited ability to shoot back in what they thought were overwhelming numbers, and ended up with a force that had outnumbered them in terms of SD(P)s, which is a losing proposition for almost any formation. Javier Giskard backed out of a fight at Trevor's Star because he wasn't sure he could inflict enough damage to the combined Allied fleets at Trevor's Star to be worth it, despite a small numerical advantage.

You also have to remember that all the sensor data was also pointing the wrong way. The Protector's Own had excellent data on all incoming Havenite ships thanks to the FTL coms, as well as knowing almost exactly the heading they were coming in on. While the BC(P)'s are indeed a lighter, easier-to-kill unit, they didn't have the data on the force because they had been refining their solutions for Honor's fleet, not Yu's. Nor were they really aware of just how effective they were. In the end, Tourville was basically stuck with his ass hanging out, and his guns were pointed in the wrong direction.

Also, getting jumped by surprise isn't the best time to try to figure out which units are the most vulnerable.

Though I would like to know if the same Havenite intel reports that thought the Graysons might have pod laying battlecruisers also included the analysis of how much more vulnerable they should be than a 'normal' BC.

Tourville never fired at the Graysons.
I wonder how many of their LACs were Katanas , and how early the Graysons worked out the anti-missile screening role for LACs. If those 12 SD(P)s and 6 BC(P)s were supplemented by a LAC anti-missile screen of Ferrets and Katanas they were probably a tougher missile target that Honor's whole command; despite the 25 SDs, 11 DNs, and 36 BCs she had bulking up her missile defense.

Engaging the Protector's Own might not have been the more effective tactic; no matter how much more vulnerable to damage a BC(P)s is.

Jonathan_S wrote:
*snip*

Though I would like to know if the same Havenite intel reports that thought the Graysons might have pod laying battlecruisers also included the analysis of how much more vulnerable they should be than a 'normal' BC.

Just on this point, I not at all sure that a BC(P) is any more vulnerable than a standard BC. Comparing the figures in HoS, a Courvosier II has 26CMs and 24 PDLCs in each broadside, compared to 18 and 18 for a Flight III or IV Reliant. The pod core would cost some structural strength, but the BC(P) also has 89% more mass, which should go some way at least to counteracting that, not to mention implying stronger sidewalls.

I don't the issue was ever that BC(P)s were more fragile than conventional BCs, it's that they were far too fragile to go in the wall with SD(P)s, and their ability to carry Mk23 pods meant there would always be a temptation for an admiral to put them there (a nice analogue of the problem with Royal Navy-style battlecruisers circa WWI - they had dreadnaught- or superdreadnaught-calibre guns, but nowhere near the armour). Even against another BC(P) they'd be vulnerable, so a BC(P) v BC(P) action would be spectacular but brief. And that's without dealing with the ammunition constraints.

Dafmeister wrote:

Jonathan_S wrote:
*snip*

Though I would like to know if the same Havenite intel reports that thought the Graysons might have pod laying battlecruisers also included the analysis of how much more vulnerable they should be than a 'normal' BC.

Just on this point, I not at all sure that a BC(P) is any more vulnerable than a standard BC. Comparing the figures in HoS, a Courvosier II has 26CMs and 24 PDLCs in each broadside, compared to 18 and 18 for a Flight III or IV Reliant. The pod core would cost some structural strength, but the BC(P) also has 89% more mass, which should go some way at least to counteracting that, not to mention implying stronger sidewalls.

I don't the issue was ever that BC(P)s were more fragile than conventional BCs, it's that they were far too fragile to go in the wall with SD(P)s, and their ability to carry Mk23 pods meant there would always be a temptation for an admiral to put them there (a nice analogue of the problem with Royal Navy-style battlecruisers circa WWI - they had dreadnaught- or superdreadnaught-calibre guns, but nowhere near the armour). Even against another BC(P) they'd be vulnerable, so a BC(P) v BC(P) action would be spectacular but brief. And that's without dealing with the ammunition constraints.

I probably should have clarified that as "how much more vulnerable they were than a BC of the same displacement and defenses"

Yes, a bigger size, and more active defenses makes any ship more robust and harder to hit. But in something as small as a BC(P) making room for the pod bay seriously alters the internal layout and displaces critical systems from their optimal locations dispersed fore to aft along the centerline.

Add that there's no room for Invictus style secondary armor around their pod core; so hits that reach the missile bay (even hits that punch in from the side) are likely to take out the entire remaining pod load and have it inflict additional damage on equipment near the pod bay.


A Courvosier II certainly has better active missile defenses than a Reliant, and due to it's increased mass it might be marginally more survivable to the hits that do get through; but I wouldn't overly be surprised if it wasn't. But it's certainly less survivable to hits that a BC(medium?) tube based BC design of the same size and with the same active defenses as the BC(P).

I think the debate about survivability includes the following factors,

Electronic signature and effectiveness of countermeasures. Modern LACs are survivable because their small size and agility makes it almost impossible to hit them. At double the mass of a standard BC, a BC(P) is more likely to get targeted and hit. See what happened to Adm Henke at Solon.

The next layer is active defenses, primarily counter missiles and PDLCs but lasers and grasers are also employed in the antimissile role. With effectively double the CMs and PDLCs, the BC(P) has more survivability in this regard.

Keyhole Platform. The GSN BC(P) does not have them but some of the RMN BC(P)s do. This enhances effectiveness of active defenses while allowing the ship to interpose it's wedge. Unfortunately; the bays for the Keyhole platforms severely compromised armor making catastrophic reactor hits far to likely.

Sidewalls. The NIKE has near SD sidewalls strength whereas the BC(P)s have sidewalls equilant to or perhaps inferior to conventional BCs barely half their mass.

Armor and compartamentalization. The BC(P) inevitably sucks in this regard. The missiles that penetrate the active defenses and sidewalls do far more damage.


I still have not reread WoH, but given the commentary in HoS, the BC(P)s launched many pods in the opening salvos then retreated behind the SDs and screen. The RHN might not have recognized what the BC(P)s were then given the volume of fire presumed that the GSN SD(P)s had expended much of their ammo making them a less attractive target.

Also, was the Protectors Own inside the hyperlimit? If so they could easily jump to hyper to evade any salvo big enough to hurt them.

The Haven commander finds himself engaging with a force that is not what he expected and then that he has been mousetrapped by a large force of what have got to NOT be "older" ships since Grayson doen't really have that many "older" ships, certainly not in the SD size range. He really only has two choices at the point the Protector's Own drops in: 1) fight the SEM fleet as Sidemore as intended (more or less) and the Grayson ships as they close to engagement range 2) do what he can to break off and fight his way out so to let most of his fleet live to fight another day- if he can.
The plan is busted. He is in a very bad situation. He does have the option (if not the duty) to retrieve what he can. If nothing else, SEM (and now Grayson) is going to have to honor the threat his forces represent in the area and it would be POSSIBLE to still create havoc by forceing SKM deployment to protect other locations and continue to pick off SEM ships on his way out from Sidemore to wherever. And let Haven know what has happened. IF the rest of the operations went as planned, the SEM/Grayson forces at Sidemore would be effectively isolated from Manticore- and hopefully Manticore would fall soon and make the point moot. That's not what happened but you get the picture.