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Most hated character

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Re: Most hated character
Post by Uroboros   » Thu Jan 30, 2014 3:26 pm

Uroboros
Captain (Junior Grade)

Posts: 275
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exiledtoIA wrote:Is english a second language for you?
I understand exactly what she did.
She VIOLATED HER SWORN OATH. TWICE.
This is someone you hold up for adoration?
I will also point out she is an accessory to murder before the fact.
A real lovable person.
Honestly, White Havens appointment of her to run the RMN's
R&D programs causes me to have some doubts about him as well.
You have someone who KNOWINGLY and WILLING twice breaches the trust of an organization she volunteered to join.
And then you turn around and put the future of your weapons and ship developement , the very things that have kept your kingdom alive, in the hands of someone you KNOW will cave if the price is right.
I begin to think the SEM's next major problem will not come from an external threat - it will come from within.


roseandheather wrote:...wow. Your reading comprehension is even worse than I thought. You really are just pulling crap out of your arse now, aren't you? :x


Whoah. This needs to settle down. This is rapidly devolving into a shouting match.

I disagree with your analysis exiled, but I can see where you are coming from. I think you're looking at everything a little too black-and-white. It could also be argued (and was argued) that Honor violated multiple regulations, some very, very serious regulations, when she assumed command for Sarnow and didn't pass it down the line. Despite saving the squadron and winning the battle, she should have been court-martialed as well, with that logic.

As far as Sonja was concerned? I don't think she acted entirely properly, no. I think that the others who participated in the trial acted even worse. But, I don't see the same arguments for Admiral Jurgens or Commodore Lemaitre, who quite obviously were acting in a very political manner.

I think, like I stated before, that she had some very serious issues to sort through, and that she acted very strangely for her established character. I think she regrets her involvement in the entire affair, and it's something she's going to have to live with.

As far as her distaste for capital punishment? It's speculation, but it's possible that she felt against it. She also didn't feel that Young deserved to be in uniform. Dishonorable discharge isn't anything to scoff at. It's a humiliating experience. Short of prison time or death, it's the harshest punishment they could have given.

As far as the charge of murder after the fact? No. Paul was legally killed in a duel. Despite the shadiness that surrounded the duel, it was entirely, utterly legal for him to die in the way he did. Nor could anyone have suspected that Pavel Young would go so far out of his way to enact revenge. It never even crossed Honors mind, Youngs oldest enemy, that he would try something like that.

My point is that everyone makes mistakes, even huge errors in judgement. Some, like Youngs, are worth holding on to and prosecuting. Others, just really aren't. Young caused the deaths of thousands in his cowardice. Sonja might have been indirectly responsible at best for the death of Paul Tannerskly, but so was the rest of the Tribunal if that's the case. Even then, Young is the one who pulled the trigger by proxy, and is truly responsible for that death.
Last edited by Uroboros on Thu Jan 30, 2014 3:37 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Most hated character
Post by Theemile   » Thu Jan 30, 2014 3:31 pm

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MaxxQ wrote:
Karthak wrote:Cordelia Ransom. She is the only character who actually made me hiss out loud.


^^^This.

What makes me hate her is that she pretty much *believes* the crap she spews. I suppose I ought to pity her for it, but I can never bring myself to. It's pure hatred all the way.

Oh, and I want to thank cthia for starting threads like this and the others. You have brought some sorely-needed humor and calming down to this forum after all the other crap going on about the graphic novel covers.


Sadly, I have met people like this; Rabid for their principles, even- or especially - in spite of truth of the contrary. They seem to live in their own little world and ferociously defend that border between it and reality.

Fortunately, I've never seen any rise to anything close the position Ransom had - usually life tends to temper their retoric over time or they are so far away from reality that no one listens to them in the first place.

The real scary thing was Cordellia's charisma - people actually listened to her. That narrow focused, closed minded rabidness combined with charisma is a scary combination.
******
RFC said "refitting a Beowulfan SD to Manticoran standards would be just as difficult as refitting a standard SLN SD to those standards. In other words, it would be cheaper and faster to build new ships."
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Re: Most hated character
Post by roseandheather   » Thu Jan 30, 2014 3:42 pm

roseandheather
Admiral

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Uroboros wrote:SNIP

As far as Sonja was concerned? I don't think she acted entirely properly, no. I think that the others who participated in the trial acted even worse. But, I don't see the same arguments for Admiral Jurgens or Commodore Lemaitre, who quite obviously were acting in a very political manner.

I think, like I stated before, that she had some very serious issues to sort through, and that she acted very strangely for her established character. I think she regrets her involvement in the entire affair, and it's something she's going to have to live with.

As far as her distaste for capital punishment? It's speculation, but it's possible that she felt against it. She also didn't feel that Young deserved to be in uniform. Dishonorable discharge isn't anything to scoff at. It's a humiliating experience. Short of prison time or death, it's the harshest punishment they could have given.

As far as the charge of murder after the fact? No. Paul was legally killed in a duel. Despite the shadiness that surrounded the duel, it was entirely, utterly legal for him to die in the way he did. Nor could anyone have suspected that Pavel Young would go so far out of his way to enact revenge. It never even crossed Honors mind, Youngs oldest enemy, that he would try something like that.


Thank you.

Do I think Sonja Hemphill is a perfect angel who acted absolutely correctly at all times? Of course I don't. She is often bullheaded, abrasive, and sometimes downright rude.

But I also believe with all my heart that she made the best of a frankly godawful situation during that trial. On the one hand, as people have pointed out, convicting Young of all charges would have almost certainly prevented a declaration of war from going through, and as an officer, Sonja couldn't allow that. Not to mention the tremendous pressure on her to acquit.

On the other hand, she knew he was in the wrong. And so she did the only thing she could think of. She made the one choice that would draw hatred from both sides and took the only other option she could see. She did as her conscience bade her because she was trapped between a rock and a hard place and there was no right answer, only the least of all available evils.

So Young was cashiered, and the Navy was freed to do what it must against Haven.

I think a part of her will regret till her dying day that she didn't vote to convict on all charges. But I think it's something she will live with because hindsight is always 20/20, and given the situation she was in, she did the very best she could. As she always has done, and always will do.

Sonja Hemphill is no angel. But she is also a patriot. And I will defend her with everything I've got.
~*~


I serve at the pleasure of President Pritchart.

Javier & Eloise
"You'll remember me when the west wind moves upon the fields of barley..."
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Re: Most hated character
Post by exiledtoIA   » Thu Jan 30, 2014 3:43 pm

exiledtoIA
Lieutenant Commander

Posts: 129
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roseandheather wrote:...wow. Your reading comprehension is even worse than I thought. You really are just pulling crap out of your arse now, aren't you? :x


Whoah. This needs to settle down. This is rapidly devolving into a shouting match.
I have never said that Honor shouldn't have been court-martialed.
She should have been. That however would have ended the series much sooner than intended.
As far as Jurgens and LeMatire are concerned, they may be corrupt yahoos who can be counted on to vote the party line,
the point is they can be counted on. You may not like them but you know the way things will go.
As an aside, do we ever hear anything more about either of them?
The whole problem I have with Hemphill is not that she is abrasive and lacking in people skills.
It's that she can't be counted on in the crunch.
Her conduct has proven it.
She may be fine in the day to day things, but what happens when she has to make a big decision, something of the same magnitude as Young's trial?
Is she going to do the right thing, the wrong thing, or compromise and screw everyone?

I can admire the things Hemphill has done for Manticore, but I can't trust her.



I disagree with your analysis exiled, but I can see where you are coming from. I think you're looking at everything a little too black-and-white. It could also be argued (and was argued) that Honor violated multiple regulations, some very, very serious regulations, when she assumed command for Sarnow and didn't pass it down the line. Despite saving the squadron and winning the battle, she should have been court-martialed as well, with that logic.

As far as Sonja was concerned? I don't think she acted entirely properly, no. I think that the others who participated in the trial acted even worse. But, I don't see the same arguments for Admiral Jurgens or Commodore Lemaitre, who quite obviously were acting in a very political manner.

I think, like I stated before, that she had some very serious issues to sort through, and that she acted very strangely for her established character. I think she regrets her involvement in the entire affair, and it's something she's going to have to live with.

As far as her distaste for capital punishment? It's speculation, but it's possible that she felt against it. She also didn't feel that Young deserved to be in uniform. Dishonorable discharge isn't anything to scoff at. It's a humiliating experience. Short of prison time or death, it's the harshest punishment they could have given.

As far as the charge of murder after the fact? No. Paul was legally killed in a duel. Despite the shadiness that surrounded the duel, it was entirely, utterly legal for him to die in the way he did. Nor could anyone have suspected that Pavel Young would go so far out of his way to enact revenge. It never even crossed Honors mind, Youngs oldest enemy, that he would try something like that.[/quote]
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Re: Most hated character
Post by exiledtoIA   » Thu Jan 30, 2014 3:49 pm

exiledtoIA
Lieutenant Commander

Posts: 129
Joined: Sat Feb 02, 2013 5:23 pm

OK, not quite sure how I managed to do that.
My reply to Orobos is between the dotted lines.
Sorry about that.

Rose - the subject was "Most Hated Character"
Hatred is not logical, I have never said Hemphill has not done good, just that she is my most hated character and have explained why.
You don't have to agree and life would be boring if we all did.

exiledtoIA wrote:
roseandheather wrote:...wow. Your reading comprehension is even worse than I thought. You really are just pulling crap out of your arse now, aren't you? :x

---------------------------------------------------
.
I have never said that Honor shouldn't have been court-martialed.
She should have been. That however would have ended the series much sooner than intended.
As far as Jurgens and LeMatire are concerned, they may be corrupt yahoos who can be counted on to vote the party line,
the point is they can be counted on. You may not like them but you know the way things will go.
As an aside, do we ever hear anything more about either of them?
The whole problem I have with Hemphill is not that she is abrasive and lacking in people skills.
It's that she can't be counted on in the crunch.
Her conduct has proven it.
She may be fine in the day to day things, but what happens when she has to make a big decision, something of the same magnitude as Young's trial?
Is she going to do the right thing, the wrong thing, or compromise and screw everyone?

I can admire the things Hemphill has done for Manticore, but I can't trust her.

---------------------------------------------------

I disagree with your analysis exiled, but I can see where you are coming from. I think you're looking at everything a little too black-and-white. It could also be argued (and was argued) that Honor violated multiple regulations, some very, very serious regulations, when she assumed command for Sarnow and didn't pass it down the line. Despite saving the squadron and winning the battle, she should have been court-martialed as well, with that logic.

As far as Sonja was concerned? I don't think she acted entirely properly, no. I think that the others who participated in the trial acted even worse. But, I don't see the same arguments for Admiral Jurgens or Commodore Lemaitre, who quite obviously were acting in a very political manner.

I think, like I stated before, that she had some very serious issues to sort through, and that she acted very strangely for her established character. I think she regrets her involvement in the entire affair, and it's something she's going to have to live with.

As far as her distaste for capital punishment? It's speculation, but it's possible that she felt against it. She also didn't feel that Young deserved to be in uniform. Dishonorable discharge isn't anything to scoff at. It's a humiliating experience. Short of prison time or death, it's the harshest punishment they could have given.

As far as the charge of murder after the fact? No. Paul was legally killed in a duel. Despite the shadiness that surrounded the duel, it was entirely, utterly legal for him to die in the way he did. Nor could anyone have suspected that Pavel Young would go so far out of his way to enact revenge. It never even crossed Honors mind, Youngs oldest enemy, that he would try something like that.
[/quote]
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Re: Most hated character
Post by roseandheather   » Thu Jan 30, 2014 3:54 pm

roseandheather
Admiral

Posts: 2056
Joined: Sun Dec 08, 2013 10:39 pm
Location: Republic of Haven

exiledtoIA wrote:OK, not quite sure how I managed to do that.
My reply to Orobos is between the dotted lines.
Sorry about that.

Rose - the subject was "Most Hated Character"
Hatred is not logical, I have never said Hemphill has not done good, just that she is my most hated character and have explained why.
You don't have to agree and life would be boring if we all did.



My problem isn't that you dislike her - well, okay, it is, but that's not the point - my main problem is that your dislike of her is founded on an absolutely, 1000% incorrect perception of her character.

But clearly no amount of reason in the world is going to get through to you, and I've never been one to beat my head against an unbreakable object.

So I will just sit back and wait for canon to prove you wrong -- as I'm sure it will.
~*~


I serve at the pleasure of President Pritchart.

Javier & Eloise
"You'll remember me when the west wind moves upon the fields of barley..."
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Re: Most hated character
Post by NortonIDaughter   » Thu Jan 30, 2014 4:27 pm

NortonIDaughter
Captain (Junior Grade)

Posts: 265
Joined: Thu Jan 16, 2014 12:09 am

Ooh, here's a few more: Westerfeldt and Canning from OBS. Forget the SKM/PRH side of things-- how many Medusan deaths are they responsible for? And that was actually a part of the plan!

(Also, on a completely unrelated note-- after hearing Matsuko's spiel about contaminating native cultures, did anyone else think, "OMG, you violated the Prime Directive!"?)

(On that note, since they clearly have no problem living in space stations, etc, in these series, why *did* they bother to land on Medusa?)
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Re: Most hated character
Post by roseandheather   » Thu Jan 30, 2014 4:44 pm

roseandheather
Admiral

Posts: 2056
Joined: Sun Dec 08, 2013 10:39 pm
Location: Republic of Haven

NortonIDaughter wrote:Ooh, here's a few more: Westerfeldt and Canning from OBS. Forget the SKM/PRH side of things-- how many Medusan deaths are they responsible for? And that was actually a part of the plan!

(Also, on a completely unrelated note-- after hearing Matsuko's spiel about contaminating native cultures, did anyone else think, "OMG, you violated the Prime Directive!"?)

(On that note, since they clearly have no problem living in space stations, etc, in these series, why *did* they bother to land on Medusa?)


Westerfeldt and Canning automatically earned themselves a place on my shit list because they upset Dame Estelle, but even if they hadn't, they'd still be there. I mean, it's not like they were exploiting the Medusans for their own profit, or anything! :x
~*~


I serve at the pleasure of President Pritchart.

Javier & Eloise
"You'll remember me when the west wind moves upon the fields of barley..."
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Re: Most hated character
Post by SWM   » Thu Jan 30, 2014 5:21 pm

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NortonIDaughter wrote:(On that note, since they clearly have no problem living in space stations, etc, in these series, why *did* they bother to land on Medusa?)

If this gets into a deeper discussion, it should probably go into a new thread. But for a quick answer, it depends on who you mean. If you mean Manticore, it's because they wanted to make first contact, and eventually (and slowly) raise the Medusans up. If you mean the trade legates, because various star nations and merchant groups were already going to have a significant presence in the system for the wormhole trade, so they decided they might as well try to offset some of the cost by trading with the natives, too.
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Re: Most hated character
Post by KNick   » Thu Jan 30, 2014 9:14 pm

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Sorry, Rose. As a former sailor I must agree at least in part with Exiled. Sonja committed at least two and possibly three criminal acts with her vote.
First: dereliction of duty. If Young was guilty of the crimes he was charged with, it was her responsibility to see that he suffered the punishment for those crimes. If, for any reason, she felt she could not impose that sentence she should have recused herself. As the charges were specified, if he was guilty of one, he was guilty of all of them. Since she felt he was guilty (she must have in order to propose the solution she did), she should have so voted, from the start.
Second: Conduct unbecoming an Officer. By allowing political pressure to sway her vote, she violated her commissioning oath. In fact, under the strict interpretation of the law, all six were guilty of this charge.
Third (possibly). Conspiracy to commit a crime. If she discussed her decision with anyone, she is guilty of this. However, I do not know if there were any "off screen" discussions. It is implied that there are, but that is unconfirmed in her case.

All of that said, I believe that she has risen above that period of her life, not in spite of but because of, the effects of that decision. She had her nose rubbed in the fact that she was wrong and is doing her best to atone for her mistake.
_


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