Most hated character

Direwolf18 wrote:

roseandheather wrote:
...you do realise she went against political pressure to vote for Young's discharge, right? If she was really the political admiral you claim, she'd have voted to acquit. She voted with her own convictions despite considerable pressure for her not to do so.

I suggest you re-read the passage you attempt to refer me to, because you clearly haven't a clue why she did what she did.

If she truly voted against her political orders, Young should have been shot, and Paul Tankersley would still be alive. I wish I could like her as a character, and I see how RFC kinda did a 180 on her, but Young SHOULD have been shot at the end of that court martial, and everyone knows it. Hell SHE knew it! She tried to compromise and split the difference, and when you do that on a purely ethical issue, things always end in disaster. She let a known rapist and coward escape justice.

I'm not saying I hate her, but her integrity is compromised in my eyes, and she will never be as beloved as some like Shannon Foraker who is just awesome.

Right. Because knowing someone is guilty and wanting them to be duly punished - as Sonja did - automatically has to equate to wanting them to suffer the death penalty.

Her not voting for the death penalty had nothing to do with political pressure and everything to do with her own personal convictions. As someone who is against the death penalty - in any circumstances - I sympathise completely with her. She voted with her conscience, not to anyone's political pressure, be it White Haven's or North Hollow's. And that takes far more courage than simply switching sides. She knew very well that she'd be disliked by the pro-Honor faction for not voting for the death penalty, and disliked by the pro-Young faction for voting to have him cashiered. That's the kind of thing someone can only do when ruled by their conscience, not politics.

waddles for desert wrote:I do not know if treecats can herd a hexapuma. But, I am pretty sure they could lure one where they wanted it to be.

Instead of soiling their own claws and fangs with such filth, I think they are civilized enough to just gather and watch as the hexapuma does the rest. And, if the the various condemned are released together in one spot with only one hexapuma around, justice could be deliciously slow.

Afterwards, a particular request would be made countless times: "Play it again, Sam---antha."

Yes, treecats can herd hexapumas. They have already done so to catch another criminal in A Beautiful Friendship.

roseandheather wrote:Right. Because knowing someone is guilty and wanting them to be duly punished - as Sonja did - automatically has to equate to wanting them to suffer the death penalty.

Her not voting for the death penalty had nothing to do with political pressure and everything to do with her own personal convictions. As someone who is against the death penalty - in any circumstances - I sympathise completely with her. She voted with her conscience, not to anyone's political pressure, be it White Haven's or North Hollow's. And that takes far more courage than simply switching sides. She knew very well that she'd be disliked by the pro-Honor faction for not voting for the death penalty, and disliked by the pro-Young faction for voting to have him cashiered. That's the kind of thing someone can only do when ruled by their conscience, not politics.

I like Sonja well enough, but I don't know that the text supports her voting against his execution because she objects to capital punishment itself.

While I think the comment above about her character development is spot-on, I can't agree with the way she voted in the Young trial. She knew the charges and the requirements of the law; if she so objected to the penalty itself, she should have excused herself on those grounds. She should not have voted specifically to acquit on the capital charges when she knew they were accurate, simply because she objected to the legally mandated sentence.

But as I said, I don't know that the text supports that reading. If it doesn't, then offering her compromise is either A) an act of patriotism aimed at the declaration fight as suggested above, or B) her bowing to political pressure, even if not to the degree people wanted. And only RFC could tell us for sure.

NortonIDaughter wrote:

roseandheather wrote:Right. Because knowing someone is guilty and wanting them to be duly punished - as Sonja did - automatically has to equate to wanting them to suffer the death penalty.

Her not voting for the death penalty had nothing to do with political pressure and everything to do with her own personal convictions. As someone who is against the death penalty - in any circumstances - I sympathise completely with her. She voted with her conscience, not to anyone's political pressure, be it White Haven's or North Hollow's. And that takes far more courage than simply switching sides. She knew very well that she'd be disliked by the pro-Honor faction for not voting for the death penalty, and disliked by the pro-Young faction for voting to have him cashiered. That's the kind of thing someone can only do when ruled by their conscience, not politics.

I like Sonja well enough, but I don't know that the text supports her voting against his execution because she objects to capital punishment itself.

While I think the comment above about her character development is spot-on, I can't agree with the way she voted in the Young trial. She knew the charges and the requirements of the law; if she so objected to the penalty itself, she should have excused herself on those grounds. She should not have voted specifically to acquit on the capital charges when she knew they were accurate, simply because she objected to the legally mandated sentence.

But as I said, I don't know that the text supports that reading. If it doesn't, then offering her compromise is either A) an act of patriotism aimed at the declaration fight as suggested above, or B) her bowing to political pressure, even if not to the degree people wanted. And only RFC could tell us for sure.

I never said that she didn't vote to condemn on the capital charges because she specifically objects to capital punishment; she could have had any number of reasons for not wanting that penalty to be exacted.

All she says is this: "I will not vote to convict Lord Young of the capital charges against him, Sir. Whether he was legally within his rights to refuse Lady Harrington's orders or whether he was bound by his understanding of the situation to accept them is immaterial to that decision."

So there's no explicit reason given for why she was against capital punishment, just that she is.

But that's not what my argument is based on. If she had gone with the White Haven/Harrington camp, North Hollow &co would have despised her. If she had voted with North Hollow's camp, the White Haven/Harrington camp would have despised her. But by doing what she did, she set herself up to be hated by both parties, because she wouldn't have done enough for either of them. She'd have caught all of the flak and none of the praise from both sides, which completely contradicts the presumption that she voted the way she did because of political pressure. She voted in the one way that was a lose/lose for her, and that is not the kind of thing you do for political gains. Whatever her reasons, Sonja Hemphill voted with her conscience that day.

And if she had excused herself, who knows who might have been sent in to take her place? Her recusal could have very well ended any chance at punishing Young at all, an outcome Soni was clearly not going to risk.

You don't have to agree with her. I do, but I understand why some people wouldn't, even if I think those people are wrong. I'm just asking that she not be condemned as caving to political pressure when all the evidence points to the absolute contrary - that she voted true to her own convictions against tremendous pressure from both sides, regardless of the risk to her or to her career.

Really, honestly hate? In the Honorverse? Kolokoltsov. Don't get me wrong, I'd happily see the MAlign leadership hanged to the last person, but within their own frame of reference they think they're doing the right thing. Kolokoltsov's every action is with his own power base in mind, knowing he's in the wrong and doing it anyway. How many millions of deaths is he responsible for?

Fyrwulf wrote:Really, honestly hate? In the Honorverse? Kolokoltsov. Don't get me wrong, I'd happily see the MAlign leadership hanged to the last person, but within their own frame of reference they think they're doing the right thing. Kolokoltsov's every action is with his own power base in mind, knowing he's in the wrong and doing it anyway. How many millions of deaths is he responsible for?

*standing ovation*

Direwolf18 wrote:… If she truly voted against her political orders, Young should have been shot, and Paul Tankersley would still be alive. …

Paul would have lived for some longer time.

But, the Conservatives were blocking the Declaration of War while Pierre consolidated his revolution.

Was there a probability of an enduring peace with Pierre or whoever would succeed him?

Pierre wanted to reform Haven. But, he had to motivate the populace to accept the necessary privations. He at least needed a threat of war so that he could push the patriotism button. If that wasn't enough, he needed a real war. While he knew well the faults of Haven, I suspect that he believed a good bit of his own condemnation of Manticore as a plutocracy. And, I think that his sense of patriotism left him with few qualms about plundering another nation to save his own.

Unless there was a probability of an enduring peace with Haven, Hemphill probably saved a great many lives by not voting to condemn Young as the Conservatives then would likely have blocked the Declaration of War until Pierre consolidated his revolution and resumed the war on his terms. She may have saved her nation. And, as a serving officer, Paul might well have been among those killed.

Now, were those her considerations? Or, as an aristocrat, did she simply find it to demeaning to have a fellow aristocrat, even a despicable one, put to death by the mob? Or, was she torn between a genuine devotion to the service and feelings of obligations to her party and her class?

Does anyone doubt that she is smart, politically astute and generally patriotic?

Members of the government who were not supposed to consider it were discussing the politics of the trial and the consequences for the deliberations for a Declaration of War. Hemphill, not actually being gerbil, would have known this.

If Terekhov could take up his cross at Monica and if Mike could take up hers at Meyers, could Hemphill not take up hers in a court room?

waddles for desert wrote:

Direwolf18 wrote:… If she truly voted against her political orders, Young should have been shot, and Paul Tankersley would still be alive. …

Paul would have lived for some longer time.

But, the Conservatives were blocking the Declaration of War while Pierre consolidated his revolution.

Was there a probability of an enduring peace with Pierre or whoever would succeed him?

Pierre wanted to reform Haven. But, he had to motivate the populace to accept the necessary privations. He at least needed a threat of war so that he could push the patriotism button. If that wasn't enough, he needed a real war. While he knew well the faults of Haven, I suspect that he believed a good bit of his own condemnation of Manticore as a plutocracy. And, I think that his sense of patriotism left him with few qualms about plundering another nation to save his own.

Unless there was a probability of an enduring peace with Haven, Hemphill probably saved a great many lives by not voting to condemn Young as the Conservatives then would likely have blocked the Declaration of War until Pierre consolidated his revolution and resumed the war on his terms. She may have saved her nation. And, as a serving officer, Paul might well have been among those killed.

Now, were those her considerations? Or, as an aristocrat, did she simply find it to demeaning to have a fellow aristocrat, even a despicable one, put to death by the mob? Or, was she torn between a genuine devotion to the service and feelings of obligations to her party and her class?

Does anyone doubt that she is smart, politically astute and generally patriotic?

Members of the government who were not supposed to consider it were discussing the politics of the trial and the consequences for the deliberations for a Declaration of War. Hemphill, not actually being gerbil, would have known this.

If Terekhov could take up his cross at Monica and if Mike could take up hers at Meyers, could Hemphill not take up hers in a court room?

...my "I could kiss you for defending Sonja Hemphill" list is apparently going to turn me into quite the hussy.

roseandheather wrote: ...my "I could kiss you for defending Sonja Hemphill" list is apparently going to turn me into quite the hussy.

Well, I got passed over last time. I thought I better try harder, or I'd be left out all together.

Fyrwulf wrote:Really, honestly hate? In the Honorverse? Kolokoltsov. Don't get me wrong, I'd happily see the MAlign leadership hanged to the last person, but within their own frame of reference they think they're doing the right thing. Kolokoltsov's every action is with his own power base in mind, knowing he's in the wrong and doing it anyway. How many millions of deaths is he responsible for?

Mmm... I think that people are casting too much god-like powers and knowledge on the Mandarins as a whole. While certainly a bunch of slimy cretins, they've continually made mistake after mistake with regards to Manticore. Especially concerning Raging Justice. They seem to suffer from a terminal case of NMJ (Not My Job), and they relied almost entirely on Rampajet and his staff to formulate the plan despite Innoteky's distrust of the admirals fundamental competence.

I also have doubts about how far they each have their hands in the OFS pie. If things are really going badly on the Verge, why haven't we seen transtellars going directly to the head honcho to complain that their little empires are collapsing? We've only seen one do that, and it had nothing to do with the Verge, it had to do with the shipping of the League. Instead, the OFS has used OFS assets to control the situation.

I don't think the Mandarins have nearly as much control or power as has been implied. Perhaps in the core, yes, but the Shell, or Verge? As well, Innoteky's a very proud Solarian. If you were raking off millions, nay, billions of dollars on the backs and deaths of thousands of people, would you be particularly proud of your nation?

I think it's also very telling that while he has received report after report about Manticore's activities and increasing hostility, he's shown little to no particular worry about Manticore taking those Verge systems and reporting what they've found. Given the absolute shit storm which is going on, I think he'd be more than a little worried about the little kingdoms, complete with serfs, that have been set up in the middle of the utterly democratic and benevolent League.

Take the Maya sector, for example. The oversight for the Maya sector has seemed distant at best, despite the fact that the Mandarins don't particularly trust Governor Barregos. They've managed to pull the wool over some pretty spectacular developments, including the creation of an entire fleet (well, they're almost there.) without much of any suspicion that it's even happening. And this is in one of the sectors they distrust.

I'm not saying I like Kolokoltsov. He realizes that the League is utterly flawed, and he's unwilling to even try to change how the game is played. But again, look at how he's handled situations thus far. His handling of each particular problem is focused solely on the Core worlds. It's been stated that while Earth and the Core might swallow a lot of the BS that's coming out of Old Chicago, the Shell and protectorates will not at all, and will in fact have the opposite reaction. His (and the rest of the Mandarins) handling of every situation so far has been incredibly shortsighted. Everything they've done to date is based solely around their own bailiwick.

Simply put, I think the Mandarins way out of their league.

Pun intended.