Do you like the Illustrated Novel Space Ships?

MaxxQ wrote:Now try flashing those images at someone *not* familiar with the universe for just a few seconds (about the time one would see them onscreen) and ask them to explain the differences, or tell you which ship belongs to which side.

Again, why just a few seconds? Why not do a minute long pre-command fly by scene? It's become something of a tradition in the books and even if it isn't explicitely mentioned in HotQ (I don't remember), it's a deviation that I would enjoy.

I'm not trying to be antagonistic, but trying to think like someone not familiar with the Honorverse.

There's different levels of "not familiar". The average sci-fi fan is very intelligent and will pick up the differences quickly. If we're talking about sheeple who only come to the movies for their (simulated) blood and munchies, I honestly don't much care if they get it right away or not, because they'll come back for a sequel so long as the action scenes are edge-of-your-seat and the dialogue is tight but not opaque with technobabble.

Fyrwulf wrote:

MaxxQ wrote:Now try flashing those images at someone *not* familiar with the universe for just a few seconds (about the time one would see them onscreen) and ask them to explain the differences, or tell you which ship belongs to which side.

Again, why just a few seconds? Why not do a minute long pre-command fly by scene? It's become something of a tradition in the books and even if it isn't explicitely mentioned in HotQ (I don't remember), it's a deviation that I would enjoy.

Because in today's film market, more than a few seconds is *boring*. Again, people are conditioned to expect certain things nowadays. Why do you think nobody younger than 35-40 years old likes 2001? Because it's *boring*. Hell, a lot of people refer to the first Star Trek movie as Star Trek: The Motionless Picture.

Let me let you in on something: I'm currently rendering a new animation that is pretty much *exactly* what you mention above. In fact, it's been rendering 24/7 since December 16th, and looks to not be finished for another month at least (940 frames left at about 48 minutes per frame). The final animation will be 3 minutes and 20 seconds long.

That said, while it's something that I'm sure 90% of the people here will like, I *know* that most non-fans will be bored by it - too long, no sound, no flashy effects - and will probably stop watching it after less than a minute. I *can* edit out roughly 15-20 seconds, but not really much else.

Oh, sure, there might be a few non-fans that will watch the entire thing, but I could almost guarantee they'll be few and far between.

The thing is, if a shot goes on for more than 25-30 seconds, people will get bored. Maybe not bored enough to walk out, but they'll remember and talk about how slow the start of the movie is. With my animation/video, I'm not trying to make any money, so I don't give a damn whether anyone thinks it's boring, but Evergreen *are* trying to make money, and they need to keep that in mind for *every* aspect of the film. And look at it this way: if the movie makes money, then so does David, and it might also bring in new fans of the books.

I'm pretty invested in the Honorverse, having spent the last seven years of my life making canon models for it. Despite that, I can accept some changes to the ships to make them easier for the general audience (not "sheeple" - I don't care about how you feel about non-fans, that's just plain insulting) to figure out who's who.

As I've mentioned before, if the ships we've seen for the cover art are the direction they're going, then it's a damn sight better than what we were shown at HonorCon. At least the cover art ships somewhat resemble David's descriptions - most people here recognized things about them that match the canon designs. Remeber that two of the covers are locked mainly due to the publication schedule, and the rest are still works in progress. I'd be willing to bet my current paycheck (heh...) that the designs will get closer to canon over time. The final film designs *will* still be different from canon - bet on it - but I have a feeling that they'll be closer than what we've seen so far.

Fyrwulf wrote:

I'm not trying to be antagonistic, but trying to think like someone not familiar with the Honorverse.

There's different levels of "not familiar". The average sci-fi fan is very intelligent and will pick up the differences quickly. If we're talking about sheeple who only come to the movies for their (simulated) blood and munchies, I honestly don't much care if they get it right away or not, because they'll come back for a sequel so long as the action scenes are edge-of-your-seat and the dialogue is tight but not opaque with technobabble.

Don't be so quick to think that even the average sci-fi fan will pick up on these things. Just like anyone else, they have *also* been conditioned to expect everything I've talked about before. Like I said, there isn't a single SF movie or TV series *anywhere* that has similar-looking ships on *both* sides of a battle. If you can name *one*, I'll be very surprised. Sure, they might pick it up quicker than non-SF fans, but probably no quicker (or not by much) than intelligent *non* SF fans. Despite your disparaging remarks, they *do* exist.

Look, I'm just as unhappy as anyone else here about the designs, the concepts we've seen of Honor, and the work on Nimitz, but being a dick about it isn't going to accomplish a damn thing, except to get the insulting remarks ignored by the people that are trying to get some input. Why *should* they sift through the insults to find the often very good points brought up? Internet anonymity is a wonderful thing, isn't it?

Whatever. I think the final designs will be better and closer to canon than what we've seen so far. I don't think everyone will be happy with it, though, and frankly, at this point, I don't care. I will watch closely for the next couple years to see how things go. I will make calm, non-insulting comments when asked, and hope for the best. If it doesn't work out, then it doesn't work out.

It's not the end of the world if it doesn't.

Edit to add: You say they should spen a minute or so doing a flyby around the ships? Think about it - the first movie is supposed to be based on HotQ - there's three different navies in that book - Manticoran, Havenite/Masadan, and Grayson. Are they supposed to spend a minute or so flying around ships of all three? And let's not forget that the Masadan Navy consists of their own ships as well as those of Haven, so technically, there could be *four* flyarounds. You think *any* film director nowadays would waste three minutes (or more) on something like that?

MaxxQ wrote:Because in today's film market, more than a few seconds is *boring*.

It doesn't have to be silent.

not "sheeple" - I don't care about how you feel about non-fans, that's just plain insulting

It has nothing to do with a person's fandom or not. This isn't a political forum, so I won't get into the why, but I frankly have very little faith in the basic intelligence and integrity of the vast majority of humanity in general.

Despite your disparaging remarks, they *do* exist.

I'll take your word for it.

Why *should* they sift through the insults to find the often very good points brought up?

Is Evergreen being insulted? Why should they care what I think of their walking money printing machines?

My point is that Evergreen is attempting to cater to the lowest common denominator, otherwise known as somebody who hasn't cracked a book since they left school (sheeple, as I like to call them). That demographic are the sort of people who loved the first Matrix movie but disliked the next two because it made them engage their brains and think. The requirements for them to walk out of the movie having enjoyed themselves are, again, that the action scenes are exciting and the dialogue isn't stilted.

Let's move on to the hypothetical fan of name-your-scifi-franchise who is not familiar with the Honorverse. So, they're coming into it cold, with no clue how to differentiate the good guys from the bad. Well, your own models can be used as a basic guideline. Black/gold/red for the SKM, silver/green/black for Haven, light blue/dark blue/gold for Grayson, and who knows what for Masada as ship color schemes. To make it even more obvious, let's slap each respective navy's crest on the broadsides of each ship, it's far less absurd than the concept art we've seen so far. There aren't all that many ships in total to differentiate, with Fearless and Saladin taking most of the screen time. So, in my opinion, the differentiation issue isn't as big a deal as it was made out to be.

Obviously you know about the majority opinion expressed on these boards.

Internet anonymity is a wonderful thing, isn't it?

Your assumption here is that I wouldn't say similar things to a person's face. You're quite incorrect. I can, I would, and I have, to the point where I had a rep as a sarcastic dick at my high school well after I'd finished.

Edit to add: You say they should spen a minute or so doing a flyby around the ships?

Nope, just the Fearless. Again, Fearless and Saladin are going to receive the majority of the screen time, and Saladin is going to establish itself as the bad guy by the expedient of shooting at Fearless.

I suppose the movie will have thrusters, have battles that are 1000's rather than 1,000,000's of km apart, ships that sit right next to each other on the imaginary table top, shields that will be going down, battles that happen a couple hundred klicks away from planets. Lots of red green and blue lasers. Missiles that fire off in 5's or 10's and leave torpedo tracks across space. Explosions that rock nearby ships, pulser bolts that lift you off the ground and knock you back 8 metres. Explosions that are so slow they pick you up and toss you away. Arrogant Royalty because they fail to see the pride royalty and loyalty and service instill in the common and elevated person. Poor people under dogs because rich people are bad....

Okay. Let's just hope we get none of that. Then it can't but be great.

Lord Skimper wrote:I suppose the movie will have thrusters, have battles that are 1000's rather than 1,000,000's of km apart, ships that sit right next to each other on the imaginary table top, shields that will be going down, battles that happen a couple hundred klicks away from planets. Lots of red green and blue lasers. Missiles that fire off in 5's or 10's and leave torpedo tracks across space. Explosions that rock nearby ships, pulser bolts that lift you off the ground and knock you back 8 metres. Explosions that are so slow they pick you up and toss you away. Arrogant Royalty because they fail to see the pride royalty and loyalty and service instill in the common and elevated person. Poor people under dogs because rich people are bad....

Okay. Let's just hope we get none of that. Then it can't but be great.

I hope we get none of that. I love Star Trek and Star Wars for what they are, but I would shudder if Honorverse movies heads into that direction.

Uroboros wrote:

Lord Skimper wrote:I suppose the movie will have thrusters, have battles that are 1000's rather than 1,000,000's of km apart, ships that sit right next to each other on the imaginary table top, shields that will be going down, battles that happen a couple hundred klicks away from planets. Lots of red green and blue lasers. Missiles that fire off in 5's or 10's and leave torpedo tracks across space. Explosions that rock nearby ships, pulser bolts that lift you off the ground and knock you back 8 metres. Explosions that are so slow they pick you up and toss you away. Arrogant Royalty because they fail to see the pride royalty and loyalty and service instill in the common and elevated person. Poor people under dogs because rich people are bad....

Okay. Let's just hope we get none of that. Then it can't but be great.

I hope we get none of that. I love Star Trek and Star Wars for what they are, but I would shudder if Honorverse movies heads into that direction.

We probably will get some of that, but probably not to the extent that skippy thinks. Again, it goes back to conditioning. Audiences are used to seeing point-blank ranges, and it would take several films showing realistic ranges to break that conditioning. Hell, even when I read the books, I have a hard time placing the ships far enough apart in my mind. I don't even have wedge sizes right in my mind, although when I'm making my models, I don't have any problems at all.

Remember that Evergreen are trying to make a movie that will make enough money that they can continue to do so. I'm realistic enough to know that if that means point-blank missile battles, visible lasers and grasers, "swoosh" sounds, and engine trails on missiles, then so be it. *I* know how it ought to be, and unless the movie is complete crap for reasons *other* than the battles, I will probably enjoy it (Starship Troopers is an excellent example - the effects were great, but the story, the acting, and everything else sucked - big time).

If Evergreen pull a Starship Troopers on us, then all the vitriol being spewed here will be deserved. Until then, how about we keep it all in check for a bit?

Ok, may be opening a can of worms here, but hey, going to try it.

How big do the thruster bells need to be to *be* canon?

Ship figures from the Honorverse Wiki:

We know that a Warlord Battle Cruiser masses 918.750 Ktons or 1,837,500,000 lbs. (assuming English tons)

Honor was able to use the thrusters to generate 150Gs (4800 ft/sec^s) of acceleration at Hades for the approach to the final battle.

That would require 8.820 TRILLION lbs of thrust. (F=MA)

One of the largest US built rocket engines, the F-1, produces 1.5 million lbs of thrust. With the above numbers, it would take 5.880 million of these engines to produce that thrust.

At a bell diameter of approx 3m, and a width and the Warload having a Beam and Draught of 92m x 82m, approx 838 of such engines can fit on the rear of the Warload class.

Not even close.

Now even assuming that the Fusion powered thrusters of the Honorverse produce a much higher thrust per m^2 of space, it seems to me that their MUST be some big honking thruster bells on the back of these ships to get that kind of acceleration, even on emergency overdrive.

Have I missed something somewhere?

MaxxQ wrote:Remember that Evergreen are trying to make a movie that will make enough money that they can continue to do so. I'm realistic enough to know that if that means point-blank missile battles, visible lasers and grasers, "swoosh" sounds, and engine trails on missiles, then so be it.

Isn't this kind of a "self fulfilling prophecy" though? In that nobody makes movies that do it realistically, so we don't actually know that they would sell fewer tickets.

Somebody has to be the first, otherwise everybody just copies how Star Wars (or whatever) did it forever...

With regards to general ship appearance, that can be dealt with in an after action review of a simulated combat.

Doesn't need to be long, but make sure there's a reference to hull form being dictated by propulsion physics.

More in depth, yes there do need to be a few more visual clues as to which ships belong to which star nations, especially if the hammerheads are removed.

Rnewman wrote:Have I missed something somewhere?

Yes. The part where this is not strictly speaking hard SF.