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Obamacare implosion

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Re: Obamacare implosion
Post by Michael Riddell   » Sat Jan 18, 2014 10:52 am

Michael Riddell
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namelessfly wrote:I thought that I would post this just to illustrate what healthcare in many of the "civilized nations" is like.

http://conservatives4palin.com/2014/01/ ... aming.html


Nameless, that may hit an unfortunate nerve with you considering your circumstances, but it's being filtered through a website that conforms to your political ideology.

There are no such things as "death panels" in the NHS. Euthanasia is illegal in the UK - there's a HUGE debate about it. Do a search. You'll find that both sides are thoroughly entrenched in their views, but the government is not in favour of it.

EDIT: This is the official NHS in England position:http://www.nhs.uk/conditions/euthanasiaandassistedsuicide/Pages/Introduction.aspx

The Health Services in the other parts of the UK will have similar positions.

You can get a rough idea of the UK debate from some of the comments displayed at the bottom of the page. Do not assume, however, that the comments apply to the entire population. 11 comments is too small a selection.

When something like what's in the cited article happens, it's purely based on what the patient themselves wish, or if they are so far gone, the relatives make the decision, yay or nay. I've had friends and work colleagues who have lost loved-ones from cancer and it's an utterly horrific disease if can't be beaten into remission permanently. It just comes back until it kills you. That's not a reflection on the medical help available, sometimes cancer cannot be beaten, especially if it's aggressive and spreads.

You may not agree with this, our societal experience is much too different for that, but there's a general feeling in the UK that there comes a time when you just want to slip "quietly into that good night", rather than being kept alive in some Frankenstein like manner in hospital. It's something I dread happening to myself or my parents. Technology has it's limits, after all. (shrug)

Mike.
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Gonnae no DAE that!

Why?

Just gonnae NO!
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Re: Obamacare implosion
Post by Eyal   » Sat Jan 18, 2014 2:26 pm

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Michael Riddell wrote:The only way to understand is to actually live in the country your discussing. Nameless is therefore correct in saying that non-US people should stay out of a discussion involving internal American dynamics, but, as this is the internet, that is impossible as everyone likes to stick their oar in!

Mike. :)


Thing is, Mike, are you and namelessfly (And anyone else demanding this) willing to reciprocate? I've rarely seen Americans being reticent to comment on domestic Israeli politics...

More generally, a few comments:

1) As far as getting Republicans on board with this legislation, from what I recall the GOP was clear that it would not support it under any terms, except possibly those which would gut it as far as its proponents are concerned.
2) It's kind of difficult to get a picture of whether or not the ACA is effective because it seems to vary a lot throughout the states. In particular, I saw an article a few days ago (although I can;t find it again right now)which noted that the ACA was getting off to a much better start in states where the legislatures/governers were in favor of it than those in which they weren't (the article gave Florida as an example of the latter).
3) One problem I keep seeing when conservatives object to universal healthcare - it seems to be always the same few countries used as negative examples of the effects of such healthcare - usually Canada (as in this thread) and the UK. You don't see such comments based on France's ssytem, for instance. Regardless of the accuracy of the claims involved, this seems to me to be misleading because no-one is saying you should adopt a particular country's system wholesale. For example, a comment was made earlier that it is very difficult to get private treatment in Canada. This is not a universal case for all countries with nationalized health care! You have the option of picking and choosing the best from a variety of such systems and seeing where they went wrong, yet there seems to be little interest in that,
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Re: Obamacare implosion
Post by biochem   » Sat Jan 18, 2014 2:43 pm

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Canada is what most Americans have personal experience with since it is our next door neighbor. So when you read news stories etc referring to socialized medicine in 9out of 10, it is the Canadian system being referred to. So when thinking of the US perspective it tends to be the US system vs Canada, not the US vs Australia or the US vs Sweden.

The Canadian system has notoriously long waiting lists for just about everything except primary care. Every Canadian person that I personally know has been put on a waiting list for something at some point. If you are in reasonably good health and don't need complex or timely treatment it works OK eventually. If you need complex, expensive treatment delivered in a timely fashion... start praying. People meeting that description routinely die on waiting lists. The rich pay out of pocket for timely treatment in the USA.
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Re: Obamacare implosion
Post by Michael Riddell   » Sat Jan 18, 2014 4:27 pm

Michael Riddell
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Eyal wrote:Thing is, Mike, are you and namelessfly (And anyone else demanding this) willing to reciprocate? I've rarely seen Americans being reticent to comment on domestic Israeli politics...


Well, I can't answer for Nameless, but, in my case, the answer would be, mainly, yes. My reply to him above was purely to point out that the article he posted isn't without ideological bias, and is therefore skewed. If you look at my previous posts in this forum, they have been primarily to inform and correct some misconceptions, not to pass withering comment on American politics. I'm not American, after all!

As for Israeli politics? We (the UK) just don't get that coverage unless there's some ruckus going on in the region. Even then it's Israel's foreign policy that's scrutinised, not the domestic stuff. Apart from Likud, I can't name any other political party off the top of my head.

I may not agree with him, but I do not feel any need to try and get Nameless to change his views and opinions - that will not happen. In this case I've just given him some alternative information for him to digest. It's up to him how he wishes to interpret it.

As for the fact that US critics use the Canadian and UK health systems as examples is probably down to language, in the main. The information is easy to get and doesn't have to be translated! And as biochem posted, Canada is close by.

Mike.
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Gonnae no DAE that!

Why?

Just gonnae NO!
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Re: Obamacare implosion
Post by PeterZ   » Sat Jan 18, 2014 5:22 pm

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Part of what makes Americans so different from the rest of the world is a different national/cultural tradition. Most of the world developed from the idea that the state was sovereign and the state granted privileges to its subjects. The nature of the state has changed from absolute monarchs to elected parliaments. Yet sovereignty or the ultimate authority has always resided in the state.

The US tradition is different. Sovereignty or the absolute authority resides in the individual citizen. We the people lend that authority to agents that act on our behalf. The amount and nature of the authority lent is defined by our Constitution.

The question of socialism is approached and viewed differently depending on which tradition your PoV has been shaped by. To the American PoV socialism or asserting public ownership of certain enterprises and activities means giving up more authority/sovereignty to our agents in government. To most of the world with that other tradition, socialism secures a greater share of privilege from the sovereign state.

I am sure that many will disagree with my quick analysis. Yet, if one understands the American prism described reflects the PoV of a great many Americans both liberal and conservative, any discussions will be more productive.
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Re: Obamacare implosion
Post by Michael Riddell   » Sat Jan 18, 2014 5:53 pm

Michael Riddell
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PeterZ wrote:Part of what makes Americans so different from the rest of the world is a different national/cultural tradition.-SNIP-


Exactly - you have my complete agreement on that. In order to exchange views, you must understand, or have some comprehension of, the other persons viewpoint even if it fundamentally differs from your own.

To elaborate on, say, the British view of socialism, you have to understand both the historical and social development of the UK. British socialism is deeply rooted in the "class system", the echoes of which still overshadow this country.

This classic comedy sketch from the sixties should give you an idea:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K2k1iRD2f-c

Well, the first minute or so anyway! Hopefully it's not region restricted.

Mike.
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Gonnae no DAE that!

Why?

Just gonnae NO!
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Re: Obamacare implosion
Post by Annachie   » Sat Jan 18, 2014 7:38 pm

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Given the sheer amount of American content on our TV's ...
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You are so going to die. :p ~~~~ runsforcelery
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still not dead. :)
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Re: Obamacare implosion
Post by PeterZ   » Sat Jan 18, 2014 7:54 pm

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Annachie wrote:Given the sheer amount of American content on our TV's ...


Which has exactly what to do with the accurate dissemination of American political attitudes or beliefs?
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Re: Obamacare implosion
Post by biochem   » Sat Jan 18, 2014 9:49 pm

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Given the sheer amount of American content on our TV's ...


Hollywood lives on their own planet. If you believed what they write the average US family is so dysfunctional it's amazing children survive to adulthood.
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Re: Obamacare implosion
Post by Annachie   » Sun Jan 19, 2014 12:06 am

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PeterZ wrote:
Annachie wrote:Given the sheer amount of American content on our TV's ...


Which has exactly what to do with the accurate dissemination of American political attitudes or beliefs?


It was a tongue in cheeck way of pointing out that it's not just the US that is affected by US policies/attitudes.

Although thinking about it, Murdoch.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
You are so going to die. :p ~~~~ runsforcelery
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
still not dead. :)
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