Obamacare implosion

Since this megafail has become a subject that some would prefer to ignore, I thought that I would post this link to a hilarious monologue by Jimmy Kimmel.

http://conservatives4palin.com/2014/01/ ... aying.html

BTW, Oregon's healthcare exchange has failed to enable anyone to sign up a single person for health insurance. This includes myself, my wife and our children who are loosing the health insurance plans that we had before Obamacare went into effect.

Finally, a word to all of you citizens of foreign countries who have presumed to demonize the more conservative Republicans who attempted to prevent this train wreck during the recent debt limit debate. You projected your own experiences with nationalized healthcare in your own countries onto the United States to justify criticism of conservatives. If you had bothered to do any research on the issue, you would have understood that the Obamacare abomination bears little resemblance to the nationalized healthcare systems in other countries that have evolved over most of a century. In the future, when the US is involved in a political debates over internal issues that really are non of your business, please STFU!!!!!!!

Most of the comments I remember reading seemed to be more mystified about why conservatives in the US were against nationalized healthcare. I don't remember many that were demonizing conservatives.

You come across as a very angry person. I don't know if that's just because of the tonal ambiguity of text or what, but it'd be nice if you could try to come across in a more civil manner.

namelessfly wrote:Finally, a word to all of you citizens of foreign countries who have presumed to demonize the more conservative Republicans who attempted to prevent this train wreck during the recent debt limit debate. You projected your own experiences with nationalized healthcare in your own countries onto the United States to justify criticism of conservatives. If you had bothered to do any research on the issue, you would have understood that the Obamacare abomination bears little resemblance to the nationalized healthcare systems in other countries that have evolved over most of a century. In the future, when the US is involved in a political debates over internal issues that really are non of your business, please STFU!!!!!!!

So the comment about the US joining the rest of the modern world were not saying that the US is some podunk 3rd world nation held back by conservatives wasn't derogatory. Interesting take on your part.

Then when they actually see what is actually selectively implemented they found that it isn't what they thought it was. Of course the same could be said for all those people in Congress who voted for it, "So they could see what was in it."

Really, go back and read some of the comments that were made.

Just like President Obama is against the 1% an yet leads a government that is done the most for the 1% in the last 40 years(which is a rather depressing period for it). With no sign of slowing the "wealth" migration. While President Reagan who did the most is vilified. Selective history recall is a wonderful thing.

T2M

Donnachaidh wrote:Most of the comments I remember reading seemed to be more mystified about why conservatives in the US were against nationalized healthcare. I don't remember many that were demonizing conservatives.

You come across as a very angry person. I don't know if that's just because of the tonal ambiguity of text or what, but it'd be nice if you could try to come across in a more civil manner.

The US healthcare option was designed from the git go to fail. Major Medical companies and insurance companies didn't want it so they and their hacks in office (on both sides of the aisle) built something that avoided the label of socialism in exchange for something that wouldn't work but would big business interests.

Of course the insurance companies are going to confuse and obscure the issues and make it more expensive to implement. What better way to scuttle it or failing that grab as much money as they can while they can before something that works is implemented and their astronomical profit margins disappear.

We should be pissed at both parties and the (not a citizen) corporations who have created these circumstances. The real pissing and moaning seems to be coming from ideologues shaping the debate than people actually looking for solutions.

Not a thing in your post I disagree with. Anytime big generalized stuff is addressed, big organizations are going to be best at making sure they get their piece of the pie.

So what problem are we trying to fix? No it is not a stupid or simple question to me. Saying something is broken does not cut it, IMO("I r a tech"). Be specific, please.

T2M

PS I normally try not to post too much to any topic as I tend to be one of those folk who yells too much and dominate folk out of a conversation. So I will probably not respond right away. Side benefit makes me think about stuff before I reply. Though I do fail at this way too much.

BrightSoul wrote:The US healthcare option was designed from the git go to fail. Major Medical companies and insurance companies didn't want it so they and their hacks in office (on both sides of the aisle) built something that avoided the label of socialism in exchange for something that wouldn't work but would big business interests.

Of course the insurance companies are going to confuse and obscure the issues and make it more expensive to implement. What better way to scuttle it or failing that grab as much money as they can while they can before something that works is implemented and their astronomical profit margins disappear.

We should be pissed at both parties and the (not a citizen) corporations who have created these circumstances. The real pissing and moaning seems to be coming from ideologues shaping the debate than people actually looking for solutions.

What a crock of bullfeathers!

The POS legislation was never fully read and understood by the House or Senate before the vote. Democrats never let republicans do anything but vote no on this bill. No amendments were entertained at all and debate was stifled. The public debate was short on specifics because as Pelosi stated "we have pass it before we find out what is in it". She also played more than a bit loose on the vote when the bill came out of reconciliation.

Because a very few people from one political party wrote a crappy bill it is now everybody's fault equally including the industry this legislation was supposed reign in? What utter nonsense! Why not just repeat this was Bush's fault too.

BrightSoul wrote:The US healthcare option was designed from the git go to fail. Major Medical companies and insurance companies didn't want it so they and their hacks in office (on both sides of the aisle) built something that avoided the label of socialism in exchange for something that wouldn't work but would big business interests.

Of course the insurance companies are going to confuse and obscure the issues and make it more expensive to implement. What better way to scuttle it or failing that grab as much money as they can while they can before something that works is implemented and their astronomical profit margins disappear.

We should be pissed at both parties and the (not a citizen) corporations who have created these circumstances. The real pissing and moaning seems to be coming from ideologues shaping the debate than people actually looking for solutions.

Peter, Nancy Pelosi is about as inept as they come in my books. She is an ideologue to her toes. It was that very element of her personality that lead to this. You are correct that they pushed it fast that it should have been but we should ask why?

Why? Likely they needed a win on at least on front and this was supposed to be their big win.
Why push so hard? Well, I would be willing to bent that at least part of it was "If we let them tie this up we'll get nothing done" which is exactly what the ideologues on both sides have managed over the past decade plus, as we all know.

I'm now at the point where I truly do not believe that anything will ever get done in the this country so long as The Dems and Repubs control the political landscape. We need to decertify the parties and ban them as sources of funding. As of today they provide a ready access for special interests to gain control of what is discussed and what action is taken on. With only two national parties they can lock out most others. Heck even our primaries are built around pandering to these two groups.

Lets take back the franchise and then we can actually set to work on solutions. Overturn Citizen's United (or implement the draft for corporations) and ban all party references in campaigns We should get "Hi I'm joe schmo and this is what I'm about", not "I'm a Dem/Repub". Political party affiliations make for lazy voters. Just vote for the one your grandad did or the one with the easiest soundbite to remember.

And how is this a crock of bull feathers? Oh, did I twist your ideologies in a knot? This is what it is and most Americans flat don't trust anything that is Government or Corporation. I can't recall a time like this EVER. The apathy has reached epic proportions, its so bad most of our next generation has given up and merely hopes to survive until things change. Crap, the sheer numbers of people leaving the country is on the rise. If they have the money or can find a job elsewhere they are jumping ship.

PeterZ wrote:What a crock of bullfeathers!

The POS legislation was never fully read and understood by the House or Senate before the vote. Democrats never let republicans do anything but vote no on this bill. No amendments were entertained at all and debate was stifled. The public debate was short on specifics because as Pelosi stated "we have pass it before we find out what is in it". She also played more than a bit loose on the vote when the bill came out of reconciliation.

Because a very few people from one political party wrote a crappy bill it is now everybody's fault equally including the industry this legislation was supposed reign in? What utter nonsense! Why not just repeat this was Bush's fault too.

BrightSoul wrote:The US healthcare option was designed from the git go to fail. Major Medical companies and insurance companies didn't want it so they and their hacks in office (on both sides of the aisle) built something that avoided the label of socialism in exchange for something that wouldn't work but would big business interests.

Of course the insurance companies are going to confuse and obscure the issues and make it more expensive to implement. What better way to scuttle it or failing that grab as much money as they can while they can before something that works is implemented and their astronomical profit margins disappear.

We should be pissed at both parties and the (not a citizen) corporations who have created these circumstances. The real pissing and moaning seems to be coming from ideologues shaping the debate than people actually looking for solutions.

I'm not real good at 'Stay The F** U?'. I do admit that I was wrong initially in that I naturally assumed the new health system was a similar system to those in most developed countries. From what I have since read plus the generous information sharing here it appears to be a half hearted botch up that is very inefficient. With so many middle men and unnecessary steps it appears destined to do more to enrich those already in the insurance industry than to help the needy. I know my opinion won't be welcomed by some but what was needed was a president with balls and control of both houses to say, "Here is a government oversighted QUANGO (quasi-autonomous non-governmental organisation) that will handle all aspects of health care. The existing medical insurance organisations can bid for service over and above the basic service, and excess employees will be provided with assistance to apply for jobs with the Quango."
It reminds me of the Eurozone's problems when they had many countries sharing the one currency, but not the same finance rules. Beggars belief that people earning big money would expect either debacle to work efficiently.
Regarding "demonize the more conservative Republicans" I don't have to work hard to do that. Interesting statistics recently about the percentage of them who believe in creationism and that humans were contiguous with dinosaurs about 4000 years ago. It might not be believed by some here but I do actually share some conservative views on topics like freedom of expression, personal security, law and order, those who can work should, and self sufficiency. Humans are too complex to pigeon hole in neat boxes.
It does appear that your politicians are even worse than our inept bunch, or at least have had more time to get hamstrung by tradition and partisanship.

BrightSoul wrote:Peter, Nancy Pelosi is about as inept as they come in my books. She is an ideologue to her toes. It was that very element of her personality that lead to this. You are correct that they pushed it fast that it should have been but we should ask why?

Why? Likely they needed a win on at least on front and this was supposed to be their big win.
Why push so hard? Well, I would be willing to bent that at least part of it was "If we let them tie this up we'll get nothing done" which is exactly what the ideologues on both sides have managed over the past decade plus, as we all know.

I'm now at the point where I truly do not believe that anything will ever get done in the this country so long as The Dems and Repubs control the political landscape. We need to decertify the parties and ban them as sources of funding. As of today they provide a ready access for special interests to gain control of what is discussed and what action is taken on. With only two national parties they can lock out most others. Heck even our primaries are built around pandering to these two groups.

Lets take back the franchise and then we can actually set to work on solutions. Overturn Citizen's United (or implement the draft for corporations) and ban all party references in campaigns We should get "Hi I'm joe schmo and this is what I'm about", not "I'm a Dem/Repub". Political party affiliations make for lazy voters. Just vote for the one your grandad did or the one with the easiest soundbite to remember.

And how is this a crock of bull feathers? Oh, did I twist your ideologies in a knot? This is what it is and most Americans flat don't trust anything that is Government or Corporation. I can't recall a time like this EVER. The apathy has reached epic proportions, its so bad most of our next generation has given up and merely hopes to survive until things change. Crap, the sheer numbers of people leaving the country is on the rise. If they have the money or can find a job elsewhere they are jumping ship.

Your assertion that a law designed and voted in solely by democrats without input from the industry the law was supposed to regulate was the fault of that industry and both parties is bullfeathers. One doesn't have to be conservative to recognize that. Democrats thought it wise to design the stupid thing the way they did. Its failure is the Democrats fault.

Now if we are discussing the areas of corruption in this country, that's another topic altogether. Let's not conflate issues.

The problem with this most recent assertion of yours is that you rely in giving a corrupt government more power. I happen to agree with you that corporations have grown too large. Banks especially. The trouble is that banks have grown "too big to fail". GM has grown too big to fail. Too big to fail at least according to those corrupt idiots you wish to grant more power to.

Its not enough that we take back our electorate process. We need to limit the power and scope of government in addition to restricting corporations and unions from making campaign contributions. I am all for limiting the ability to contribute to those that can vote legally (whether registered or not). Organizations can't vote so they cannot contribute. I am ambivalent about pass through organizations like PACs.

Banning parties won't do a darn thing. Organizing like minded individuals isn't a bad thing. If such a group is worthy of trust, their recommendations might well further the aims of those that share a point of view. On the whole, I don't think limiting individual's ability to organize will help improve the process.

BTW, Oregon's healthcare exchange has failed to enable anyone to sign up a single person for health insurance. This includes myself, my wife and our children who are loosing the health insurance plans that we had before Obamacare went into effect.

Sorry Namelessfly.

Then when they actually see what is actually selectively implemented they found that it isn't what they thought it was. Of course the same could be said for all those people in Congress who voted for it, "So they could see what was in it."

The sad thing is that 90%+ of these guys, who didn't even bother to find out what was in something that impacts everyone in this country so significantly are going to be re-elected.

Just like President Obama is against the 1% an yet leads a government that is done the most for the 1% in the last 40 years(which is a rather depressing period for it). With no sign of slowing the "wealth" migration. While President Reagan who did the most is vilified. Selective history recall is a wonderful thing.

This is back to the competence problem. Obama is a true liberal ideologue. He is a borderline socialist at heart and would love nothing better than to steer the USA into a socialist "utopia". The true irony is that the incompetent way in which he has run his administration has resulted in almost the opposite, of which the wealth migration to the 1% is a case in point. The irony of this must be extremely frustrating for him.

Now how do we stop the migration of wealth to the top 1% in a competent manner. Hmmm.... Sounds like a topic for another thread.

Democrats thought it wise to design the stupid thing the way they did. Its failure is the Democrats fault.

Agree entirely. In general our system of governance is organized such that it is very difficult to get any major legislation passed without broad consensus from both parties. The give and take, back and forth nature of such compromises works to ensure that the interests of all are at least partially represented. No one party gets the entirety of what they want. The time it takes also allows the technocrats to partially debug the thing (nothing this complex will ever be without bugs in its entirety, but it should have a LOT fewer bugs than it has). By ignoring this unwritten rule and forcing this half-baked monstrosity through congress without a single Republican vote, the Democrats own this disaster.

The implementation of this boondoggle is on the Obama administration. They are the ones who screwed up the website. Earth to Planet Obama.... You have staked your entire credibility, legacy etc on THIS issue. Now is not the time to award the contact to some incompetent crony capitalist friend of a friend. EVERYTHING you want is riding on this, you should have hired the best company in the entire USA to design it, even if they aren't owned by an old college friend of Michelle's!!!!!!