Genies!

gamarus wrote:'Fragmentation of humanity into separate species'.
That's an intriguing idea. Why should that be wrong? Why shouldn't we follow evolution and speciate?

Another one of those semi-religious arguments that Mesa and Beowulf can have arguments over, I guess. On one hand, there's the desire to keep humanity recognizably human, on the other, the needs, wants and desires of people wishing to live where no human has ever lived before.

In the long term, with humanity spread out over thousands of lightyears, it is probably inavoidable.

The E wrote:

gamarus wrote:'Fragmentation of humanity into separate species'.
That's an intriguing idea. Why should that be wrong? Why shouldn't we follow evolution and speciate?

Another one of those semi-religious arguments that Mesa and Beowulf can have arguments over, I guess. On one hand, there's the desire to keep humanity recognizably human, on the other, the needs, wants and desires of people wishing to live where no human has ever lived before.

In the long term, with humanity spread out over thousands of lightyears, it is probably inavoidable.

In fact, it is alluded to in Crown of Slaves (by Web Havel, IIRC) that the Mfecane worlds were cut off from the rest of the galaxy for so long that in another few decades they might have become a new human species.

Given that there are probably colonies out there that either have (or want) nothing to do with other worlds, the probability of speciazation (sic) approaches 100% (IMHO).

Given that there are probably colonies out there that either have )or want) nothing to do with other worlds, the probability of speciazation (sic) approaches 100% (IIRC).

Only if they are successful in staying isolated. For example the Mormans in the US settled the Salt Lake City area because it was so isolated and desolate that almost no one else wanted it, That worked reasonably well in the short term. In the long term the US expansion caught up with them and their isolation was forcibly ended.

In this first chapter of A Beautiful Friendship Weber mentions that Stephany Harrington's heavy gravity genetic modification package is somewhat special because she can still breed with other humans. This implies that other genetically engineered humans can't interbreed with unmodified humans.

This impression is confirmed by the Scrags who remain recognizably different from normal humans over 1,000 years after the Final War. It is unlikely that such a small population group could remain so genetically distinct over centuries. Even Jews have adapted and interbred to blend in with the various local people groups. Their destinctiveness is as much cultural as genetic.

Web Havel's comment about Thandi's people becoming a new species if contact with the rest of humanity hadn't been restored might have been in error or an understatement. It is quite possible, perhaps even probable, that Thandi's people can't breed with Victor but continue to resemble a human enough in appearance that Victor would not feel that he is committing acts of
beastiality.

My point here is that if speciation has occurred either with or without genetic engineering (and radically different environments combined with exposure to alien retroviruses and prions could alter genetics of populations), then this will have interesting political and sociological implications. There is going to be no prospect of eliminating political and racial tensions via homogenization.

This in turn suggests an explanation and justification for the SL. The SL might have been founded not to protect it's members from external threats but from each other. Genetically diverse and incompatible subspecies of humanity might have waged some very nasty wars if the SLN had not been there to deter aggression with overwhelming force. We have been so focused on theoretical EE violations that we have ignored what SLN policy might be regarding less than genocidal attacks on members or by members.

runsforcelery wrote:
There's actually a sort of fundamental question here. Is the Alignment wrong about its objectives while Beowulf is correct to fear those objectives? Or is the Alignment only wrong about it's tactics, while Beowulf is wrong to fear the MA's final objective but right about its own tactics and morality?

There are, of course, a host of other questions. I simply submit these two for your consideration.

I had similar thoughts years ago. However; given the fecal storm that was provoked by my thread about the Manticore vs Haven war being a metaphor for the conflict between Capitalism vs Communism, I refrained from bringing it. Just pointing out that since the Mesans rejected the New Testament one can argue that the Mesans are Jewish provoked a knee jerk hostility from
the Duckk.

Applied genetics leads to some interesting discussions.
What is ok and what is not?
Is it ok to do things to cattle and sheep and dogs but not to humans?
Current thinking is that the modern dog (all of the various breeds) is descended from wolves which were “domesticated” in our distant past. Exactly how that domestication happened is still a question. What has happened since is that humans have bred and selected dogs for various traits including size, body conformation, color, hair/coat texture, temperament, strength, and specific abilities (if not specifically for dog level/type intelligence). That gives you a very interesting range of dog breeds (which can all interbreed except for some challenges with being able to carry puppies to term with size disparity) from Chihuahua and mini-Poodles to Mastiffs, Great Danes, Irish Wolfhounds. Mixed in there are Dachunds, the several Terriers, Labradors, Goldens, Pekinese, German Shepherds & related, Collies and types of Sheepdogs.
At some point these various breeds were developed by people breeding for specific traits. Sheep herding, ratting, chasing things down tunnels, tracking/finding things by scent (Bloodhounds etc, Labs, Setters) coursing prey, guard & war dogs. Then there is the whole practice of breeding for specific conformation (what they look like) in a particular breed rather than for what they were bred to do.
An ongoing argument is things like breeding Labs and Goldens (among others) to some standard of shape rather than to be hunting retrievers who use sent, sight, and can take direction to find game plus will deal with brush and think jumping into freezing water after a bird or swimming with children just part of a fun days outing. That and have a generally positive and pleasing disposition with a very real ability and temperament to act as a defender if needed (and trained). A particular peeve is breeding the brains out of anything that gets “popular” to generate lots of pretty dogs and usually ending up with a lot of pretty useless (for their “working” job) dogs.
Cattle got the same treatment but managed to avoid the breed-them-stupid-as–pets-or-trophy-possessions routine as have horses. Just looking pretty doesn’t cut it in 1,000 animals if they can’t do anything. Nobody (yet) puts a horse (or a giraffe like that commercial) in their pocket.
One of the things that show through in the story lines is that breeding for stupidity or docility in slaves isn’t happening. Cowing them into line and compliance goes on all the time plus conditioning them for obedience. But trying to make them LESS intelligent that “normal” humans appears not to be being done. Probably because “less bright” humans tend to not live long in any sort of environment without significant support systems which are not really what you call “cost effective”.

What Manpower and the Alignment are doing is very much the same thing as breeding dogs, cattle and horses. Specialized humans for work and play. Designed that way. Sold that way. Used that way. The Alignment is also “upgrading” their various control lines to further the gap between both “normal” humans and the many specialized or micro-specialized (like the “accountant” types so conveniently provided as an example) lines. We are back to treating humans as domesticated animals, except for the humans on top of the food chain who are doing the creating and there at the top the lines are just as clear (for the insiders at least) as to who is better and in ultimate control.
In my opinion, the Alignment and its component pieces like Manpower are as bad and worse than most of the systems for enslavement that have been forced on people throughout history. Unfortunately, whether a system is “right” or not usually gets decided by the people who gain the top tier and successfully keep the rest firmly under control.
We are also being shown that The Detweilers and the Planning Board are very much working on a Master Race with all other humans as little more than smart animals or tools.

gamarus wrote:

JohnRoth wrote:
This is the fundamental basis behind Mesa's stratified society and the entire "genetic slave" thing. One of Beowulf's goals is to prevent the fragmentation of humanity into separate species, as well as to avoid the "superman" syndrome that, they believe, led to Earth's Final War.

'Fragmentation of humanity into separate species'.
That's an intriguing idea. Why should that be wrong? Why shouldn't we follow evolution and speciate?

I'm not really thinking about Beowulf and their code, more as a philosophical question. Homo Sapiens as the ultimate evolution doesn't seem right.

I suppose I should have used the term "racism" instead of "fragmentation into separate species," because that's the term that's used in RFC's infodump about Beowulf's attitude toward Mesa. My bad. I made the substitution without thinking because I hang around the anthro/paleoanthro community a bit, and they reject the term "race" on scientific rather than moral grounds.

gamarus wrote:

JohnRoth wrote:
This is the fundamental basis behind Mesa's stratified society and the entire "genetic slave" thing. One of Beowulf's goals is to prevent the fragmentation of humanity into separate species, as well as to avoid the "superman" syndrome that, they believe, led to Earth's Final War.

'Fragmentation of humanity into separate species'.
That's an intriguing idea. Why should that be wrong? Why shouldn't we follow evolution and speciate?

I'm not really thinking about Beowulf and their code, more as a philosophical question. Homo Sapiens as the ultimate evolution doesn't seem right.

So?

Species compete. It is extremely unlikely that the "personhood" of "differents" will remain equal.

And, speciation requires separation. Alas, poor Romeo and Juliet. And, legal fictions aside, separate cannot be equal.

Do you volunteer to be the untermensch; Nietzsche's human cattle?

As DW illustrated, the variability of the outcome of genetics and environment makes it impossible to determine who will be the next uberman to be produced among the untermensch; the next Jeremy X of Web Havel among the slave cattle.

Whatever label and descriptions you use to define; that is to say, limit; a "species" or any other sort of group, the differentiation must become quite profound to overcome all of the aspects of individualism.

And, even if that differentiation becomes as great as that between humans and chimpanzees, a Caesar may come along some day.

runsforcelery wrote:There's actually a sort of fundamental question here. Is the Alignment wrong about its objectives while Beowulf is correct to fear those objectives? Or is the Alignment only wrong about it's tactics, while Beowulf is wrong to fear the MA's final objective but right about its own tactics and morality?

The Alignment's stated objectives are, IMHO, entirely correct, right, and proper.

The Alignment's actions in "pursuit" of those objectives are as stupid as it is possible for one to be.

The whole "Manpower" / "genetic slaves" idea seems strongly calculated to keep everybody opposed to gene engineering humans ("after all, everyone knows that genies are natural slaves"). Creating this situation, while claiming to be pursuing a policy of wanting to gene engineer everybody to their maximum potential, implies either gross stupidity, or else a desire to push as many people to the opposite side as possible (so that you can be "justified" in enslaving them all once you've won).

If the founders of the Alignment had actually just wanted "gene engineering for all", they would never have created Manpower. And once they started genetically enhancing people's life spans, they would have bragged about it to the galaxy. It would have cost less than prolong, and been just about irresistible to anyone who did not have a firm religious prohibition on gen engineering. So long bans on gene engineering. So long Beowulf's preeminence.

namelessfly wrote:

runsforcelery wrote:
There's actually a sort of fundamental question here. Is the Alignment wrong about its objectives while Beowulf is correct to fear those objectives? Or is the Alignment only wrong about it's tactics, while Beowulf is wrong to fear the MA's final objective but right about its own tactics and morality?

There are, of course, a host of other questions. I simply submit these two for your consideration.

I had similar thoughts years ago. However; given the fecal storm that was provoked by my thread about the Manticore vs Haven war being a metaphor for the conflict between Capitalism vs Communism, I refrained from bringing it. Just pointing out that since the Mesans rejected the New Testament one can argue that the Mesans are Jewish provoked a knee jerk hostility from
the Duckk.

One reason that it did is that Duckk knows I was accused of anti-Semitism in a letter to Baen shortly after HotQ came out precisely because the letter-writer reasoned that I had deliberately implied that the Mesans were Jews, based on the name of their planet and their excision of the New Testament. The real reason for the planet name, of course, was to demonstrate how religious fanatics (of any stripe, though I admit it's a tad hard to find a religious fanatic Methodist . . . except where our casserole recipes are concerned, perhaps ) can pervert and steal from the histories of any other religion, as well as their own. And, of course, however terrible we think the Honorverse Masadans are, they don't see it that way.

I trust that my readers at large --- as well as everyone who knows me personally --- realizes just how ridiculous that charge actually was, but I suspect Duckk's a bit protective of me.