Genies!

There is a relevant infodump that might affect people's thoughts: http://infodump.thefifthimperium.com/en ... gton/291/1

And another:
http://infodump.thefifthimperium.com/en ... gton/293/1

PeterZ wrote:Honor would clean Thandi's clock. Her empathy would give her enough of an edge to anticipate Thandi's moves. That should offset Thandi's greater strength and speed. Honor's experience would seal the deal in her favor. That would be fun to read about though.

Actually, Honor could defeat Thandi with just one finger; and that is because Honor has a "flaw" as a genie.

runsforcelery wrote:There's actually a sort of fundamental question here. Is the Alignment wrong about its objectives while Beowulf is correct to fear those objectives?

Or is the Alignment only wrong about it's tactics, while Beowulf is wrong to fear the MA's final objective but right about its own tactics and morality?

There are, of course, a host of other questions. I simply submit these two for your consideration.

The Jurassic Park franchise offered several homilies upon the "rewards" of arrogance when Man presumes to play God with animal DNA.

Man playing God wholesale with Man's DNA - what could possibly go wrong?

Well, Earth's "Final War", maybe. But, what could really go wrong?

This seems to be the genetic equivalent of a Command Economy (Mesa) vs a Free Market Economy (Beowulf).

If you let it go to extremes, you end up with Lenin and Stalin, or you end up with Standard Oi, Company Towns and Teapot Dome.

Beowulf seems to be aware of the hazards of extremism and takes a pragmatic - but very cautious, very conservative - approach; 'Prove that this will really be better and appropriate and that it does not diminish or augment the "personhood" of affected persons.

Mesa seems to be radicalized and is generally convinced that "improvements" are appropriate unless demonstrated otherwise, and that personhood is augmented (or diminished) by modification; "Of course the Party elite must shoulder the burden of Leadership; they are the elite!"

.

Honor's modifications are at many generatons old and were (we believe) done to adapt colonists to the planet that set was designed for. There is no evidence that overly agressive tendencies were part of the intended mix nor that the same tendencies were a result of the mix.
The Alignment has absolutely no problems with breeding genetic slaves to be just that- slaves. Custom tailored slaves. An demonstrated willingness to treat much of it's production of humans as little more than either experiments, (Simoez's daughter etc) or self tending products (like accountants) in the various lines if not just things like heavy labor force. The alignment wants to do what it wants, when it wants and has a mixture of contempt and distain (with a fair measure of anger) about anyone who thinks differently.

waddles for desert wrote:

PeterZ wrote:Honor would clean Thandi's clock. Her empathy would give her enough of an edge to anticipate Thandi's moves. That should offset Thandi's greater strength and speed. Honor's experience would seal the deal in her favor. That would be fun to read about though.

Actually, Honor could defeat Thandi with just one finger; and that is because Honor has a "flaw" as a genie.

Pretty sure shooting your opponent in what is supposed to be a martial arts match is a poor-sport maneuver...

TheGlyphstone wrote:And how do they stack up against each other? How many Scrags could Kyrillos Taliadoros beat in a fight? If Thandi Palane and Honor went to the mat in a full-contact bout, who would win? And how much could we sell the tickets for?

PeterZ wrote:Honor would clean Thandi's clock. Her empathy would give her enough of an edge to anticipate Thandi's moves. That should offset Thandi's greater strength and speed. Honor's experience would seal the deal in her favor. That would be fun to read about though.

Heck with that--after a couple of hours of sparring, think of what those two would do to an all-you-can-buffet....Oh the carnage! Oh the humanity!

I wonder when the gama and beta lines will work out that they are just as much slaves as the slaves are?

Annachie wrote:I wonder when the gama and beta lines will work out that they are just as much slaves as the slaves are?

Left to themselves, possibly never. Until RFC says otherwise, I'm using the historic Hindu division-of-work system (varnas) (usually called the caste system) as a comparison, so Alphas, Betas and Gammas do fundamentally different kinds of work.

In the Hindu system, the Brahmans were the teachers and priests, the Kashatria were the rulers and warriors, the Vashaya casts were the shopkeepers, farmers, etc. This was all laid out in the Law of Manu, which system never really worked.

I presume RFC is going to deal with Mesan society somewhat more in a future book; there may well be quite a bit in Cauldron of Ghosts.

TheGlyphstone wrote:

waddles for desert wrote:Actually, Honor could defeat Thandi with just one finger; and that is because Honor has a "flaw" as a genie.

Pretty sure shooting your opponent in what is supposed to be a martial arts match is a poor-sport maneuver...

This reminds me of the practical application of force vs the moral application of conflict. What would be called good or evil in DnD. Which of course takes on more abstract notions as society progresses. The good monk would fight the next higher up monk for the single advancement grade level, while the evil monk would hire an Assassin to do away with that monk. Of course it would likely work the same way with the higher monk eliminating the lower level monk too.

Always thought Thandi would be a better match with a San Martin. We all know what happens when anyone decides not to cheat while fighting one of them. You lose.

runsforcelery wrote:

There's actually a sort of fundamental question here. Is the Alignment wrong about its objectives while Beowulf is correct to fear those objectives? Or is the Alignment only wrong about it's tactics, while Beowulf is wrong to fear the MA's final objective but right about its own tactics and morality?

There are, of course, a host of other questions. I simply submit these two for your consideration.

Might a Beowulf alternative to use humanoid with droid AI brains in clone bodies be better? One supposes it depends what kind of notion of consciousness one has. A materialist such as Dennett or myself might feel even that is a conscious thing, not that it should need to have conscious rights, but unlike a Searle simulation which just appears to be a good simulation but is not doing anything other than appearing to be conscious or alive. Fundamental differences that have guided political and legal avenues for years and are changing laws and rules in modern times.

Is a clone a dog like living thing with dog like living rights not to be abused now, unlike when it was thought to be an automaton without a soul. One wonders if a manufactured clone on Grayson would be considered a soulless thing or a clone with clone rights but not human rights. Although Manticorians might be looked upon in a similar way. Not being born and all.
Perhaps they are just good simulations for people.

One presumes the author wishes the have advanced engineered birthing and prolong as representations of humanity not something other than humanity or non human humanoid things. Clones too? Although one wonders why prolong isn't just added to the engineered birthing combination.