New Manty ship ideas.

Dafmeister wrote:

munroburton wrote:Though as we saw at Hancock Station, replacing major internal equipment on a 800kton ship was a pain, but I suppose with a pod-layer the core hull is available as an entry point. Starting to look like the Roland, Sag-C and Nike classes really are transitional!

That might work on a Medusa/Harrington-class ship, but on the Invictus-class the pod core is heavily armoured in case of a hit coming through the pod doors.

That's only a problem if the armour is fitted 100% around the entire core instead of the sections within line-of-sight of the hatch. That armour also isn't as heavily armoured as the broadsides, so is slightly better if for some reason it's not possible to cut through the unarmoured top or bottom sides.

Jonathan_S wrote:I'm also wondering, now that Simones has give details on the streak drive, if new designs (or later flights of current designs) will be build with the larger hyper generator rooms to simplify refit once the GA has managed to build streak drives of their own. (Even if R&D finalizes a streak generator before Manticore resumes ship construction there are still the Bolthole produced SD(P) hulls that could have a window of being fitted for, but not with, Streak drive)

I did wonder about whether the next generation warships would have enlarged hyper generator compartments in anticipation of a streak refit even if the Manticoran engineered version isn't ready for use. The biggest issue is that hyper generators tend to be one of the best protected components of a warship, since they only carry one of those(unless I missed something), they'll be as close to the centerline as possible and the most difficult to replace.

It'll be a question of whether the GA feels it can afford to have their yards not building new ships long enough to refit for a little interstellar speed boost. It's not the kind of upgrade ships assigned to Home Fleet need - so any pre-streak ships could be rotated into defensive formations whilst offensive fleets gets all the new racers. If a SD(P)'s hyper generator can be refitted within two months, then it's a reasonable proposition - upgrading about a dozen units in the time it would have taken to build one with that particular yard.

munroburton wrote:It'll be a question of whether the GA feels it can afford to have their yards not building new ships long enough to refit for a little interstellar speed boost. It's not the kind of upgrade ships assigned to Home Fleet need - so any pre-streak ships could be rotated into defensive formations whilst offensive fleets gets all the new racers. If a SD(P)'s hyper generator can be refitted within two months, then it's a reasonable proposition - upgrading about a dozen units in the time it would have taken to build one with that particular yard.

While it would eventually be worthwhile for the larger units to refit for streak capability, my feeling is that priority is going to be given to smaller units. In fact, I believe that the highest priority would actually be given to a ship we tend not to think about: Dispatch boats.

Why? Having large ships in the yards at this time would be unacceptable. It is unknown how long the Grand Alliance will be able to hold the initiative, and it needs all the combat capability it can handle. Unless the refits and modifications are extremely short and small (Which I doubt) for large classes, it's simply not worth it for a little extra speed in hyper.

However, the biggest drag on operations has always been the command and control link between Manticore and everywhere else. In fact, one of the reasons that Haven was devastated so early in the opening moves in the war was because the turnaround time for orders was noticed by Caparelli and Givens. Each time a wave of attacks went off, there would be a time of peace while the reports of successes (or failures) went back, and new issues were ordered. They were able to use this to their advantage and surprise them into early and poorly-coordinated assaults on Hancock and Yeltsin.

With the increase in speed between the front and Manticore, your ability to coordinate units between distant fronts becomes much easier. Add to that the advantage of the wormhole network Manticore is already in control of and has thus seized, you have a huge advantage. Not only are your units better informed, the Lords of the Admiralty are much better informed on the front.

The next priority would go to small, light units, such as the DDs and CLs. While it probably would be less than useful for older classes, the Roland class would probably be worthwhile to upgrade in functionality. Because of the heavy automation, finding the extra space in the ship will probably not be as severe as in older, more manpower intensive classes. These classes would be useful as fast scouts ahead of large fleets and fast commerce raiders.

However, this all relies on Manticore being able to perfect and replicate the technology. Which may or may not happen.

Modular designs planning ahead can solve all of these problems. A refit with a modular armoured section that can be pulled and replaced with a new upgraded section could be done in weeks, rather than month or years. Can also be implemented for repairs of damaged sections.

New Mk23 or Mk25 tubes could be modular upgrades for a Nike BCL - modular design. All done in weeks rather than the months it would otherwise take. The modular design could take into account added Apollo tubes FTL links and upgraded armoured broadsides, ammunition feeds and magazines.

Modular ships are a good option that can quickly refit ships for needed roles.
A Mk25 Nike BCL is refit as a peacetime Mk16 Nike BCL commerce escort.

A couple of problems with that idea:

1) A modular design is inherently less structurally robust, because the modules are simply attached to the structure rather than being part of it

2) You can't simply swap missile tubes in and out, you have to change the magazine spaces and ammunition handling machinery as well, all of which is buried in the heart of the ship.

Uroboros wrote:

munroburton wrote:It'll be a question of whether the GA feels it can afford to have their yards not building new ships long enough to refit for a little interstellar speed boost. It's not the kind of upgrade ships assigned to Home Fleet need - so any pre-streak ships could be rotated into defensive formations whilst offensive fleets gets all the new racers. If a SD(P)'s hyper generator can be refitted within two months, then it's a reasonable proposition - upgrading about a dozen units in the time it would have taken to build one with that particular yard.

While it would eventually be worthwhile for the larger units to refit for streak capability, my feeling is that priority is going to be given to smaller units. In fact, I believe that the highest priority would actually be given to a ship we tend not to think about: Dispatch boats.

Why? Having large ships in the yards at this time would be unacceptable. It is unknown how long the Grand Alliance will be able to hold the initiative, and it needs all the combat capability it can handle. Unless the refits and modifications are extremely short and small (Which I doubt) for large classes, it's simply not worth it for a little extra speed in hyper.

However, the biggest drag on operations has always been the command and control link between Manticore and everywhere else. In fact, one of the reasons that Haven was devastated so early in the opening moves in the war was because the turnaround time for orders was noticed by Caparelli and Givens. Each time a wave of attacks went off, there would be a time of peace while the reports of successes (or failures) went back, and new issues were ordered. They were able to use this to their advantage and surprise them into early and poorly-coordinated assaults on Hancock and Yeltsin.

With the increase in speed between the front and Manticore, your ability to coordinate units between distant fronts becomes much easier. Add to that the advantage of the wormhole network Manticore is already in control of and has thus seized, you have a huge advantage. Not only are your units better informed, the Lords of the Admiralty are much better informed on the front.

The next priority would go to small, light units, such as the DDs and CLs. While it probably would be less than useful for older classes, the Roland class would probably be worthwhile to upgrade in functionality. Because of the heavy automation, finding the extra space in the ship will probably not be as severe as in older, more manpower intensive classes. These classes would be useful as fast scouts ahead of large fleets and fast commerce raiders.

However, this all relies on Manticore being able to perfect and replicate the technology. Which may or may not happen.

I agree, it would be more useful to have streak drives on light vessels for patrol, recon, message-carrying, etc.. But the original issue remains - it was a struggle for the Mesans to conceal the upgraded hyperdrive in a conventional dispatch boat hull - something they did by designing the ship from scratch, not refitting.

The smaller vessels won't be that much quicker to refit than a waller(except for cutting through hulls/armour). Still have to find more volume for the new generator, plus power and control links. Still have to tie up a full slip that could be used to build a modern, refitted-at-design class - and remember the Rolands and Saganami-Cs are described as transitional. The RMN admiralty isn't planning on keeping those ships around as long as they did with previous designs.

Kind of a catch-22 going round here. If it's big enough to accept a refit without noticing the mass increase, it has a lot of armour to cut through. If it's small enough that there is barely any armour in the way, it probably doesn't have any room to spare!

Interesting ideas about ins tally the streak drive in RMN ships.

This could redefine the BC class. Until now BC was distinguished from BBs, DNs and SDs by it's smaller mass and higher acceleration which gives it greater tactical mobility. However; given improved compensators, the differential in acceleration is not so great. More importantly; in an MDM/Apollo environment, higher acceleration becomes minimally important. The classic BC tactic of rapidly closing to strike is no longer effective.

We might see a new era where the distinguishing characteristic of a BC is STRATEGIC mobility rather than TACTICAL mobility.

BCs might be as big or bigger than SDs but have the streak drive for greater accelleration.

Note about retrofits.

Hyperdrives are internal components. From SVW, we know that it is a bitch to replace internal components because you have to cut through the armor or through all types of systems if you access from the roof or floor. This was a plot device that enabled Honor Harrington to loose her status as a Born Again Virgin. (You will recall that Honor did get laid only once at the academy soon after the shower rape attempt when one of Pavel Young's friends seduced her. Overhearing him boast of his conquest and disparage her inexperience traumatized her). However; pod type combatants with their enormous hull cavity might be far easier to modify. Just unload all of the pods then go in through the pod core. The pod core might even be a source of additional volume needed for a streak drive.

Of course we might end up with a class of BC that has enhanced Strategic mobility as well as tactical mobility.

Take one BC(P). Put in yard. Install streak drive. Pod capacity decreases from 360 pods to may be 260 pods. You do not care because it can perform deep strike missions. Load it up with pods full of Mk-16Gs or Mk-23s. Go hunting for SLN SDs in port nor orbital infrastructure.

namelessfly wrote:BCs might be as big or bigger than SDs but have the streak drive for greater accelleration.

The streak drive doesn't add acceleration. It allows the ship to enter a higher hyper band, where relative velocities are different. The actual ship is still limited to .8C at best - but in the theta band, the multiplier is better, reducing transit times by almost 33%.

The idea about BC(P)s is excellent. They probably are the easiest retrofits for a streak drive due to the lack of core hull armour and MK16-G pods would make up for any sacrificed pod storage.

Actually, there's another type of ship which could be refitted very quickly. Freighters and fleet auxiliaries. With the wormholes, streak-drive BC(P)s and ammo colliers could easily make rendezvous between targets to continue operations, allowing even a single squadron to inflict a trail of damage through SL space.

Yes,
I just noticed my typing error.


Streak drive gives greater speed in hyperspace which provides STRATEGIC MOBILITY!

I can't envision a BC(P) that has been retrofitted with Streak drive engaging in classic battles to invade star systems. They would use recon drones and MDMs or DDMs to attack targets from the hyper limit. Given modified recon drones to provide limited FTL control as well as tactical info, they should be devastating against ships and infrastructure.

munroburton wrote:

namelessfly wrote:BCs might be as big or bigger than SDs but have the streak drive for greater accelleration.

The streak drive doesn't add acceleration. It allows the ship to enter a higher hyper band, where relative velocities are different. The actual ship is still limited to .8C at best - but in the theta band, the multiplier is better, reducing transit times by almost 33%.

The idea about BC(P)s is excellent. They probably are the easiest retrofits for a streak drive due to the lack of core hull armour and MK16-G pods would make up for any sacrificed pod storage.

Actually, there's another type of ship which could be refitted very quickly. Freighters and fleet auxiliaries. With the wormholes, streak-drive BC(P)s and ammo colliers could easily make rendezvous between targets to continue operations, allowing even a single squadron to inflict a trail of damage through SL space.

Considering the size of the dispatch boats, it probably would not take long to produce one. They are fastest, smallest hyper capable unit you can shoehorn a hyperdrive in. While I agree with the fact that refitting them would be somewhat hard, making them from scratch would not be difficult. Also, Manticore would not have the issue of trying to conceal the new capabilities in a conventional dispatch boat, there would be no point at all to it. The Mesans were trying to keep the capabilities secret from Manticore/Solarian League. I do not see any reason for Manticore to keep the secret since Mesa knows they have or will soon have the capabilities.

As far as refits go, unless the unit is a solid unit like a fusion plant, which the hyper engine it isn't, disassembling on site is possible, as shown from Mission of Honor, in which they replace the hyper unit at Parmley Station. Considering the resources at the station, it's highly doubtful that they would have cut through the hull to retrieve the hyper unit. We also know from Torch of Freedom that hyper drives can be serviced in-flight, as they buy the parts for the servicing on Mesa, and eventually machine their own on the freighter after those parts are lost (For a good cause, of course!).

The reason why they had to cut through the hull at all in The Short Victorious War was because the fusion plant could not physically be disassembled and reassembled on-site, one of the few components on the ship that can be said of. It is a solid unit, manufactured as a solid unit.

When Manticore figures out the Streak Drive, the MILITARY Dispatch Boats would be a good place to start building with it. Probably not going to let it out into the civilian market or for export.
I suspect, however, that it would be done with new construction rather than retrofitting any existing ships. DBs are already very tight for space and what is probably a significant (for a ship this size as perhaps for ships of any size) increase in the drive system and control runs etc would play havoc with the inside. Changing a bunch of the geometry the exterior of the ship could also create some problems but you would have to ask the techincal guys.
They also wouldn't scrap the existing DBs as they are still some of the fastest ships around and SEM let alone the GA is going to be needing a lot more of them to assist with expanded communications in the Empire and the military situations.