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New Manty ship ideas.

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Re: New Manty ship ideas.
Post by namelessfly   » Mon Oct 28, 2013 10:30 am

namelessfly

kzt wrote:Umm, it was noted way back in Book 3 that space on the stations was extremely expensive. And given that work on the stations supposedly requires that you live on the station, which means you are paying exorbitant wages to your techs who work at the plant can afford to live there, well, yes , I can think of reason$ not to do that. Even before the entire industrial plant of the entire planet (and all of the workers families) got blown up in 2 seconds.
SWM wrote:With Honorverse technology, they can build a factory in orbit just as fast as they can on the ground. There is no advantage to building them on the ground. They could build them on the ground, but why would they bother, as David Weber said in that paragraph I quoted. He should know--it's his universe.


The issue of expense is probably relates to the total cost of ALL living space per person, not just individual apartments. I would imagine that Honorvese space stations include vast parklike areas to keep normal people sane. On a planet (except Grayson) parks and open space are relatively cheap. All you do is select an area that you do not build on then pretty it up with landscaping, plants, sidewalks, benches and may be a few picknictables and a latrine. Building park on a space station requires a relatively vast open area that has to be built, equipped with life support machinery, and carefully monitored and managed. Weber as given no clue, but the inverse square rule for "gravity plating" might apply which would complicate providing gravity to large volumes of space.
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Re: New Manty ship ideas.
Post by namelessfly   » Mon Oct 28, 2013 10:41 am

namelessfly

I will concede to Weber that supersonic flying cars are a lot simpler and cheaper than ground to orbit shuttles, so commuting to a space station might not be so simple. There also might be issues of atmospheric heating from the shuttles to commute millions of people per day.

I do find it odd that Honorverse societies do not build Beanstalks (aka Geosynchronus Skyhooks) between their space stations and cities at the equator of their planets. This would allow people to commute via an elevator. Even without gravitic technology commute time would be on the order of an hour. A 100 gee lift shaft would allow commute times of about ten minutes.
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Re: New Manty ship ideas.
Post by Lord Skimper   » Mon Oct 28, 2013 12:08 pm

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munroburton & kzt wrote:Umm, it was noted way back in Book 3 that space on the stations was extremely expensive. And given that work on the stations supposedly requires that you live on the station, which means you are paying exorbitant wages to your techs who work at the plant can afford to live there, well, yes , I can think of reason$ not to do that. Even before the entire industrial plant of the entire planet (and all of the workers families) got blown up in 2 seconds.
SWM wrote:With Honorverse technology, they can build a factory in orbit just as fast as they can on the ground. There is no advantage to building them on the ground. They could build them on the ground, but why would they bother, as David Weber said in that paragraph I quoted. He should know--it's his universe.


Start from the basic principle that it takes energy to move mass around. The cheapest movement possible is in zero gravity and a vacuum, where there is no environmental acceleration to the mass and no atmospheric resistance.

In the Honorverse, components end up massing thousands of tons. Even a modern destroyer outmasses an Iowa-class BB by almost two to one. That's a huge amount of mass to refine, ship from the asteroid belt to orbit to ground, manufactured, then shipped back in space and assembled. In the past 20 years, Manticore has built over four hundred vessels massing at least seven million tonnes. That's nearly three billion tonnes.

It must be much easier on the planetary atmosphere to keep all that energy and mass in orbit. Except when it comes crashing down, of course...

Space can't be that expensive aboard stations if millions of people lived in orbit. In any case, the employer probably makes some effort to provide the accommodation. It's probably cheaper to buy the Hephaestus equivalent of an apartment block than it is to pay all your employees enough for them to rent spaceside accommodation. Besides, those employees are likely to have permanent residences on the surfaces.



No one is saying it is better to build a space ship on a planet. One is saying that after all you space platforms have been blown up or shot down it is easy to build a factory on a planet surface. I have built a steel manufacturing factory. It took about a month, overhead crane, no grav plating for use, 1500 tons of rebar. In the yard. A massive shear line. Bending thingy. Racks to hold all the cut rebar. All the computer hook ups. Rest of the facilities etc... Putting up the chain link fence and the privacy screening. Of course before all of that there was the site prep. Etc... The shearline had to have the concrete base poured. Set, laid, shimed, and hammer drilled into place. Has to be flat, poured concrete inst flat. And yes when your installing a shearline for rebar and your hammer drilling the concrete and you hit a piece if rebar you cursethedamn stuff too. Irony of ironies.

I then spent the rest of the summer cutting steaming hot rebar rods to size and bending to form. Then loading the trucks with the various sizes and shapes of steel, doing paperwork orders and the like.

Of course it could take 6 times longer, and 10 times as many people. But we were not unionised.
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Re: New Manty ship ideas.
Post by SWM   » Mon Oct 28, 2013 1:11 pm

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Building a steel factory is a bit different from building a high-tech plant to build molycircs, precision nuclear weapon parts, or impeller drive components, especially when you don't have any factories left to build the manufacturing equipment you need in this new factory. It's not going to happen in a month.
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Re: New Manty ship ideas.
Post by munroburton   » Mon Oct 28, 2013 2:08 pm

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SWM wrote:Building a steel factory is a bit different from building a high-tech plant to build molycircs, precision nuclear weapon parts, or impeller drive components, especially when you don't have any factories left to build the manufacturing equipment you need in this new factory. It's not going to happen in a month.


Even the one-month figure is only for construction of the factory on an already-cleared piece of land, assumes that construction equipment, labour and material is readily available and that all the paperwork and inspections are done in a snap.

It's not as if the CEO said "I want a factory here." and 30 days later a fully-staffed factory opens and starts producing. The entire process takes much longer than the actual construction does.
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Re: New Manty ship ideas.
Post by Brigade XO   » Mon Oct 28, 2013 6:30 pm

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One would hope that SEM (and Grayson) would have taken the need for living quarters and related spaces in to the construction of the new stations. They may NOT be in the crash production of the manufacturing and shipbuilding plus support services but it they will be around on some temorary basis and then added on later. Remember that Both systems have experience and designed already inhand for manufacturing stations.
The bigger question would be are there improvements and inovations in the various designes (like crew and family quarters) that are, in fact, designed and able to be put into the mix of the new stations to be build?
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Re: New Manty ship ideas.
Post by Lord Skimper   » Mon Oct 28, 2013 8:08 pm

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And compartmentalisation that allow for a station to break apart or explode without taking the living quarters with it. On the other hand the stations could be made mobile and small, with wedge support and hyper drives. Making it hard for anyone to target the moving stations and when distant hyper footprints happen their shields go up and they start jumping into hyperspace, or perhaps they just parked in some part or parts of empty space for a little while.

Deepdocks let you show up, pick up supply's and then leave. No need to hang around waiting for someone to try and blow you up. Freighters are big enough to build missiles inside, if setup properly, without having to build stations and best of all they can move to where they are needed. Other freighters can bring in raw materials to them, from anywhere.

All you need are a bunch of empty freighters sitting around doing nothing, find those and your problem is solved.
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Re: New Manty ship ideas.
Post by TheMonster   » Mon Oct 28, 2013 8:44 pm

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Lord Skimper wrote:And compartmentalisation that allow for a station to break apart or explode without taking the living quarters with it. On the other hand the stations could be made mobile and small, with wedge support and hyper drives. Making it hard for anyone to target the moving stations and when distant hyper footprints happen their shields go up and they start jumping into hyperspace, or perhaps they just parked in some part or parts of empty space for a little while.
Assuming arguendo that something as large as a space station could mount a hyper field... "moving stations" is oxymoronic. If it's moving enough to complicate targeting, it's not a station... it's a ship.

Granted, Honorverse "forts" do have wedges, but they don't have inertial compensators, so they're limited to much lower accel, sufficient for station-keeping or moving strategically, but not tactically. The superior mobility of actual ships means that you can't move a fort (or fort-sized mini-"station") far enough during a battle to make a difference.
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Re: New Manty ship ideas.
Post by Lord Skimper   » Mon Oct 28, 2013 9:25 pm

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Deep docks don't have to be huge. Think of the Homeworld II shipyards. A little larger than the slip the ship they are constructing in. Doesn't need to be anything more than a freighter. Might not work for SD's but for anything smaller like a Battle Cruiser it shouldn't be a problem.

Makes one wonder if a Battle Cruiser sized CLAC might not work.

LAC could be made in multiples in a single ship. Might even be able to make a pair of Roland's at one time.
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Re: New Manty ship ideas.
Post by Daryl   » Mon Oct 28, 2013 9:33 pm

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I can't help but think that Lord Skimper is deliberately being provocative to say "Of course it could take 6 times longer, and 10 times as many people. But we were not unionised."
My own experience over forty odd years of work as both a worker and boss was that unionised workplaces were more productive, with less down time from industrial accidents, and better staff retention rates. Don't say such to Eric Flint on his website as he was a union organiser previously.
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