New SLN and SDF ships

In another thread namelessfly wrote: "What does the SLN and various SDFs already have, have in the pipeline or on the drawing board?"

Since the new compensator technology came from Grayson by way of a serendipitous discovery by them, have other places discovered their own little quirks? Could there be such things as improved grav plates, higher energy density capacitors or better grasers tucked away in some unknown SDF? Has anyone else found and followed the same track as Grayson or for that matter the MAlign's research into higher hyper bands? Were some of them following the developments in the Haven Quadrant closely enough to realize that improvements in anti-missile defenses were needed? Have some of them already started to develop the next generation of warships?

Exactly!!!

What Haven Quadrant weaponry have they been emulating?

What new ideas of their own did they come up with?

The SLN and SDFs are still accustomed to the predominance of energy broadsides. What may have resulted from the obvious desire for bigger, more powerful Grasers? Has anyone solved the problem of more precisely focusing that ultra hot emitter that Weber alluded to? Have any considered the possibility of Phased Array Grasers that result in a theoretically effective range measured in light years. You could not hit a ship that is maneuvering erratically but you could use to attack orbital infrastructure, ships in parking orbits, planetary targets, or even ships pulling constant acceleration from outside the hyper limit.

I think of Adm Rozak's "Light Cruisers" and wonder how many other SDFs have seemingly normal ships with enhanced capability. Certainly the Beowulf SDF has SDs that are probably comparable to an upgraded Gryphon class SD with oversized internal tubes and magazines that can handle MDMs, fire control for stacked salvos, PDLCs rather than particle cannon and LOTS of PDLCs and CMs.

Has anyone considered employing grave plating in combination with a compensator to enhance accelleration. Perhaps some geek in the SLN or some SDF has developed the idea?

In an infodump, MMW said that you cannot stack grav plates and compensator.

IIRC, text ev at one point has a conversation about how bad the SLN is, and it is noted that the SDF's wont be anywhere near as bad, just smaller. Somewhere else, (ART? i think) it was noted that the GA are ahead overall in miltech as a group of techs, so its probably very possible that at least one or two sdfs are ahead of the GA in a few techs, and are catching up overall with experimenting with GA tech.

There is much that SL defense contractors COULD have done.

But, what WOULD they have done?

The pot of gold market for SL defense contractors is the SLN. While the SLN claimed to be wedded its new "upgradeable, modular designs", (based upon platforms that are pretty much hopeless when it comes to facing the GA), they really were wedded to the concept that the special quality afforded by their sheer numbers and juggernaut political base was all they really needed.

Until just a few months ago, anyone who tried to sell the SLN on the idea that they needed something truly outside of their paradigm would not have been well received no matter how promising the technology. Businesses usually do not devote very much of their budget to developing technology that they cannot sell in their market. A few speculative, back burner projects to keep your mad scientists from jumping to the competition, maybe, but not much more.

Some SDFs were surely interested in what was happening in the Haven Quadrant. But, does that mean that their governments were going to fund research and development or even buy upgrades cooked up by businesses for that smaller corner of their market? They may spend a bit here and there. But, aside from pride and tradition and the odd Quixote, these systems knew that their real defense was the SLN. If the SLN got a bloody nose, so what? It was still the SLN; no one could stand against the SLN AND the SL. No one sane and competent would really try to do so.

Various neo-barbs would like to have every whiz-bang gadget they could get their hands on. But, is that much of a market? We do not have definitive information, but it seems like Haven was the biggest neo-barb market. But, SL defense contractors were playing catchup just trying to deliver technology good enough to keep Haven in the fight. The only thing they delivered that we have seen that was not an attempt to copy RMN technology was the missiles used in the attack against the heads of state visiting Blackbird.

The SL is a whopping monstrously large place. Surely there are plenty of Hedy Lamarrs out there with important ideas in various stages of development who have been banging their heads against various walls because no one cared about their genius.

Now that the SLN has had several whippings at the hands of the RMN, they certainly want some new toys. Defense contractors are going to try to go back to contract the geniuses they had been showing to the door. Well, actually, they will see if they have the resources in house to come up with something that they can sell based upon what they know about the work of the geniuses. If they can sell it, it is probably better if it does't work so well right away so long as their lobby can argue that it has enough promise to receive sole source funding for expedited development.

The one group who was probably really interested in spending serious change for game changing technology would have been the RF systems and various MAlign fronts. Anything promising that the RF systems were not going to try to field, MAlign fronts should have bought the rights to in order to keep it out of the hands of the people they were scheming to take down. And, if they found any really promising dead ends, they are in a position to direct SL and SLN resources into those money pits.

So, will the SLN pump out the sorts of innovation that their wealth and population and technology base suggest that they should be capable of? That does not seem likely with the MAlign positioned to exploit their penetrations of the SL and the SLN. Some innovations will surely make it to the field. But, they will probably be a small fraction of what the SL and SLN should be capable of producing.

namelessfly wrote:I think of Adm Rozak's "Light Cruisers" and wonder how many other SDFs have seemingly normal ships with enhanced capability. Certainly the Beowulf SDF has SDs that are probably comparable to an upgraded Gryphon class SD with oversized internal tubes and magazines that can handle MDMs, fire control for stacked salvos, PDLCs rather than particle cannon and LOTS of PDLCs and CMs.

It was made quite clear that the BSDF weren't adapting the same innovations as the RMN, to avoid drawing attention from the SLN or other SDFs.

Mission of Honor wrote:Beowulf was also the only League member system which has been kept routinely up to date on Manticoran military developments. The Beowulf System-Defense Force and the Royal Navy had been quietly in agreement that it would be in both services' best interest if Beowulf didn't suddenly begin introducing Manticore's new tech goodies into its own ships, where they might find their way into the SLN's less than pristine hands,

Remember Beowulf is a founding member of the League. Its SDF adopting radically new technology would be like the Virginia National Guard developing, deploying and possibly using laser rifles without any consultation at all with the Pentagon or other elements of the US military forces.

There's already been a thread that dissected why Beowulf can't possibly have many modern ships(or ships with modern fittings). It basically comes down to a peacetime construction tempo. With a minimum construction time of 2 years(more like 3) per SD and a service lifetime measured in decades, it can be theorised that Beowulf built two to four SDs in a decade. The year is 1921 in Mission of Honor; the first podnought was deployed sometime in 1912 or 1913 and was an unproven concept until Operation Icarus.

So the concepts(SD(P)s and MDMs) have been operational for roughly eight years. For a peacetime navy to design a new class probably takes two years, three of construction and one of shaking down. In the eight years since GSNS Medusa was laid down, the BSDF could only have built two or three without drawing too much attention.

This also applies to refit programs. They can't put any significant portion of their wall through a major refit without the League noticing and wondering why. If the distant Maya Sector can't get away with building its own radically modernised light ships without a lot of deception work and help from Erewhon, how can a system one week away from Sol do it with its heavyweights?

Honestly. The BSDF is as irrelevant as all those captured SLN ships in real military terms, not surprisingly, as those ships are almost certainly duplicates of the Scientist class. Its significance is purely symbolic. What can 36 SDs, even if fitted with shipboard MK23 launchers, do? They're certainly not going to lay pods or control FTL salvos, something approximately two hundred RMN and GSN units already can do.

I wouldn't be surprised if none of the BSDF SDs are younger than twenty, given how glacial SD modernisation efforts were before the Havenite Wars.

Comparing BSDF SDs to the Gryphon class is probably stretching it a bit. Although we haven't seen direct specs of them, I'm reasonably sure(based on the ~6.5MT Scientist/Vega classes) that they're much closer to the Gladiator-class dreadnought listed in House of Steel.

I think of the Honorverse weapons market to be more like Europe than the US. The US is the biggest weapons buyer and has a perhaps to cozy relationship with defense contractors that often inhibits innovation. Europe is a smaller market that obliges the various militaries to either acquire weapons through joint ventures or from independent contractors. This motivates innovations that often rival or surpass US military technology. The Tornado fighter which only the F-22 and F-35 can really match is a classic example.

The SLN is somewhat like the USN between WW-1 and WW-2. The battleship Admirals are definitely dominant but they do tolerate some experimentation with newfangled ideas such as submarines and aircraft carriers which are of course secondary weapons to support the BBs. Only after the BBs are neutralized will the submarine bellowed to truly assert itself as an independent commerce raider rather than an escort for the fleet. Ditto for the aircraft carriers that were merely scouts for the BBs until there were no BBs.

Weber has told us what the SLN and most SDFs regard as the primary warships. However; he has not ruled out the possibility of small numbers of innovative types, prototypes and research. Mission of Honor clearly suggests that such programs exist. MoH also suggests a certain wariness toward certain SDFs that are regarded as excessively large an innovative.

It is possible that the next Honorverse novel will not leave me bored shitless.

The Maya sector is a protectorate of the SL whose Navy can't wipe it's butt without OFS permission.

Beowulf is a founding member of the SL with a Constitutional RIGHT to have an SDF. Theoretically, they can tell the SLN where to stick it.

I never suggested that Beowulf has SD(P)s. What I suggested was that they had a near equivalent to a Gryphon class, internal tube SD that can fire Buttercup era, capacitor fed MDMs if it becomes advisable to introduce that technology. Individual ships may have even taken the wormhole to the RMN's base at Trevor's star for covert qualifications.

The BSDF can refit it's SDs to upgrade and increase PDLCs and CMs without provoking much scrutiny from the SLN that thinks that energy weapons remain supreme.

Refits to trade out and consolidate lasers for Grasers would provoke some attention from the SLN but would not reveal a parading shift.

Upgraded compensators would not be noticed by the SLN unless the BSDF actually uses them where the SLN can observe them.

As an analogy. Germany couldn't conceal the BBs Bismarck and the Tirpitz, or it's BCs, but they could get away with building the Graff Spee.

munroburton wrote:

namelessfly wrote:I think of Adm Rozak's "Light Cruisers" and wonder how many other SDFs have seemingly normal ships with enhanced capability. Certainly the Beowulf SDF has SDs that are probably comparable to an upgraded Gryphon class SD with oversized internal tubes and magazines that can handle MDMs, fire control for stacked salvos, PDLCs rather than particle cannon and LOTS of PDLCs and CMs.

It was made quite clear that the BSDF weren't adapting the same innovations as the RMN, to avoid drawing attention from the SLN or other SDFs.

Mission of Honor wrote:Beowulf was also the only League member system which has been kept routinely up to date on Manticoran military developments. The Beowulf System-Defense Force and the Royal Navy had been quietly in agreement that it would be in both services' best interest if Beowulf didn't suddenly begin introducing Manticore's new tech goodies into its own ships, where they might find their way into the SLN's less than pristine hands,

Remember Beowulf is a founding member of the League. Its SDF adopting radically new technology would be like the Virginia National Guard developing, deploying and possibly using laser rifles without any consultation at all with the Pentagon or other elements of the US military forces.

There's already been a thread that dissected why Beowulf can't possibly have many modern ships(or ships with modern fittings). It basically comes down to a peacetime construction tempo. With a minimum construction time of 2 years(more like 3) per SD and a service lifetime measured in decades, it can be theorised that Beowulf built two to four SDs in a decade. The year is 1921 in Mission of Honor; the first podnought was deployed sometime in 1912 or 1913 and was an unproven concept until Operation Icarus.

So the concepts(SD(P)s and MDMs) have been operational for roughly eight years. For a peacetime navy to design a new class probably takes two years, three of construction and one of shaking down. In the eight years since GSNS Medusa was laid down, the BSDF could only have built two or three without drawing too much attention.

This also applies to refit programs. They can't put any significant portion of their wall through a major refit without the League noticing and wondering why. If the distant Maya Sector can't get away with building its own radically modernised light ships without a lot of deception work and help from Erewhon, how can a system one week away from Sol do it with its heavyweights?

Honestly. The BSDF is as irrelevant as all those captured SLN ships in real military terms, not surprisingly, as those ships are almost certainly duplicates of the Scientist class. Its significance is purely symbolic. What can 36 SDs, even if fitted with shipboard MK23 launchers, do? They're certainly not going to lay pods or control FTL salvos, something approximately two hundred RMN and GSN units already can do.

I wouldn't be surprised if none of the BSDF SDs are younger than twenty, given how glacial SD modernisation efforts were before the Havenite Wars.

Comparing BSDF SDs to the Gryphon class is probably stretching it a bit. Although we haven't seen direct specs of them, I'm reasonably sure(based on the ~6.5MT Scientist/Vega classes) that they're much closer to the Gladiator-class dreadnought listed in House of Steel.

namelessfly wrote:The Maya sector is a protectorate of the SL whose Navy can't wipe it's butt without OFS permission.

Beowulf is a founding member of the SL with a Constitutional RIGHT to have an SDF. Theoretically, they can tell the SLN where to stick it.

I never suggested that Beowulf has SD(P)s. What I suggested was that they had a near equivalent to a Gryphon class, internal tube SD that can fire Buttercup era, capacitor fed MDMs if it becomes advisable to introduce that technology. Individual ships may have even taken the wormhole to the RMN's base at Trevor's star for covert qualifications.

The BSDF can refit it's SDs to upgrade and increase PDLCs and CMs without provoking much scrutiny from the SLN that thinks that energy weapons remain supreme.

Refits to trade out and consolidate lasers for Grasers would provoke some attention from the SLN but would not reveal a parading shift.

Upgraded compensators would not be noticed by the SLN unless the BSDF actually uses them where the SLN can observe them.

As an analogy. Germany couldn't conceal the BBs Bismarck and the Tirpitz, or it's BCs, but they could get away with building the Graff Spee.

Read the excerpt from Mission of Honor.

The reason Maya can get away with some light construction is it's a frontier sector, hence more lawlessness and a need for military assets. Governor Barregos can also take advantage of the "desirability of maintaining a positive relationship" with the Republic of Erewhon which is diplomatically squeezed between Manticore and Haven. Even so, the heavier units he and Roszak have ordered are supposedly bound for the Erewhonese Navy.

Beowulf, without accounting for wormhole links, is months away from any military violence. It's in what was a highly stable region of the galaxy with hundreds of years of peace. Under those circumstances, a rapid shift in warship design conventions is going to ring bells. Building too many at once implies you expect to be involved in a shooting war soon.

And Beowulf did not expect the SL to collapse or so quickly. They were never going to directly confront Haven - doing so would have violated the SL's "neutrality". They had no significant reason to radically update their SDF and specifically agreed not to. If they wait 18 to 24 months, they can transfer their crews over to Havenite-built hulls with first-rate Manticoran goodies in them. If crew-reducing automation is included, they can even trade 36 SDs for over 120.

However, there is a good point here about the other SDF observers. Clearly, they've witnessed FTL communication, pod-laying, MDMs and have peripheral observation of just how lethal and efficient the RMN is.

I've no doubt that some of those observers were from the Mesan Alignment. Some also work for SDFs possibly as complacent as the SLN. The interesting ones are from honest SDFs and governments who may have noticed something going on outside their insulated core.

I reckon the easiest platform to develop discreetly are LACs. Build a dozen different prototypes and still not scratch the tonnage of a heavy cruiser. Even a thousand, nobody is going to pay attention to them... as long as you manage to hide the carriers. Roszak had what were essentially pod-laying freighters - why not a CLAC equivalent? If you concede that your CLACs must always hyper back out after releasing their LACs, they don't need to be as toughened as the Hydra or Aviary classes.

Beowulf has until recently been at one end of a wormhole junction with a major interstellar war occurring at the other end. they may not be able to get away with much, but they can probably get away with a bit more then another core system. after all, they would have had assets like ships and spacers regularly visiting manticore, so it makes sense to be able to defend them..... or at least, thats what they'd tell people.