The punishment of the group of four

I think justice has 3 overall goals.

1. To bring satisfaction to the victims.
2. To punish the guilty, and so hopefully teach them something.
3. To protect society.

The first point is revenge, and can be moderated by grace.

The second point is moderated by the sense of guilt the culprit feels and expresses.
If they already learned their lesson there is no more reason to punish them more harshly than necessary.

The third point is the point that IMO comes into play here.
Safehold has to be protected from the Go4.
They have to be neutralized permanently to prevent them to be a condensing point of their believe systems ever again.

If that can be done without killing them, so much the better.
Deny them martyr-status. But if it can't be guaranteed that they can never again come into power, then they have to be executed.

We don't want to do them a Napoleon and come back.

The same is true for most of the remaining vicarate.
Everyone who was redeemable there is most probably already dead.
So if possible exile them all on a small island just off the coast of Charis or Chisholm in direct patrol area of the ICN.
With Merlin (or better Owl) observing any approaching vessel it should be easy to neutralize them.

It's true that the WORST thing we could do is create Martyrs of the Gang - excuse me - Group of Four.
It's also true that they stand accused and convicted by their very actions.
It's ALSO true that Robair Duchairn is approaching a reversal on appeal by way of his redemption and reacquisition of faith. Unfortunately, he has only reacquired faith in the Church of God Awaiting; a somewhat tainted religion at best. But then again, it's the only game in town for ANYONE on Safehold, even Archbishop Michael Staynair and the Church of Charis.

Zhaspar Clyntahn desperately needs a cervical collar - preferrably one about twelve inches wide. That should be enough to seperate his cranium from his vertebrae. Especially if he has sudden stop at the end of a rope first.
However, personally, I'd be even more in favor of demonstrating to him the advantages of vacuum preservation for human flesh. With himself as the test subject. It would be MOST rewarding for all involved.

The other two just need to do some major dental work on a couple of kraken.
If we could just get Merlin into the Temple undetected, he could accomplish the job with no one the wiser. Just 'softly and silently steal away' - with the three of them.
And leave Duchairn to clean up the mess - which I'm sure he would.

I never said I was a nice guy. Paybacks ARE a B***H.

Jay6722 wrote:So people, what would be your dream punishment for the group of four?

Let's address each of Group of Four, given what we know at the end of AMF.

* Vicar Rhobair Duchairn is in the process of redeeming himself, having alerted members of the Circle that they had been betrayed to Vicar Clyntahn, and furthermore Duchairn is directing funds to Church charities that directly assist many desperately poor Zion inhabitants. I suppose that either Duchairn should not be punished, or be given a quick, honorable death by performing some heroic deed - such as killing Vicar Clyntahn to save millions of lives.

* Vicar Allayn Maigwair is now somewhat more competent as Captain General, and IMO deserves to die on the defence-of-Zion battlefield as the consequence of a great strategic blunder where he arrogantly and aristocratically overrules more knowledgeable subordinates - turning certain Temple victory into devastating defeat for his forces, and ultimate victory for the Church of Charis.

* Vicar Zahmsyn Trynair is now holding on to the slash lizard's tail that is Vicar Clyntahn. He dare not let go, despite his growing doubt regarding Clyntahn's policies, as he thinks that he will become the Inquistion's next victim. I would like to see him twist a bit more in the wind - to become certain that Clyntahn will ultimately destroy the Mother Church - yet for Trynair to be absolutely too much of a coward to do anything about it. I'd like to see DW introduce us to Grand Vicar Erek XVII, who is currently Trynair's puppet. If the Grand Vicar would start becoming better informed, and thus become resistant to Clyntahn's policies, that would greatly increase the pressure on Trynair from Clyntahn - which would be a joy to see unfold. DW has left a great plot device for future Temple unrest by having the Inquisition put to the Question, i.e. torture via the rack, and subsequently execute many hundreds of women and adolescents, who are likely related to the remaining Vicars. Suppose that Grand Vicar Erek has a sister who was tortured and publicly executed during the purge of the Circle. He sure could be mad about that! Trynair has to die, and I suppose that if anyone of the GoF gets to stand trial, be found guilty, and hung by the rehabilitated Church court - it would be him. Grand Vicar Erek, if not otherwise developed into a heroic character by DW, should be sentenced to prison for life, when the facts are revealed that he is Tranair's puppet.

* Vicar Zhaspahr Clyntahn has become effectively a mass murderer. If captured alive and tried by the victors, I suppose that he would be simply hung - to firmly establish that the Church of Charis, or rather what I expect will become the merged/reformed post-schism Mother Church, fully repudiates the punishments mandated in the Book of Schueler - without exception.

I suppose that my fantasy punishment for Vicar Clyntahn is too gross to actually be written by DW, but here it is: He who lives by the sword, dies by the sword - so Clyntahn should suffer all the mandated penalties in the Book of Schueler - and completely in public. As mentioned above, I believe that its implausible for the Empire to perform this punishment, so I imagine that it could happen as a result of Archbishop Wyllym Rayno deposing Clyntahn as the Temple's military position falls apart. Rayno has all the tools of the Inquistion at his disposal, and he has established the precedence of public torture during the purge of the Circle, their staff, and families.

Somehow I hope that Clinton's punishment involves his prior knowledge of its certainty, in manner akin to how the members of the Circle suffered between their betrayal and their postponed arrests.

Okay if you say so Slipperyslope

Humm, this is an interesting question of philosophy, ideology, and faith. I am in consenus with forcing Duchairn to work to clean his own mess as a novice under heavy supervision in humility for the rest of his days. That said I believe Clyntahn will have arranged for Maigwair and Trynair to die as consolidation of his own power. Clyntahn would also be the most prone to suicide rather then be captured, probably with massive death around him in a petty scorched earth policy. If Clyntahn is caught there is more then sufficient reason to apply the entire book of Schueler to him as a lesson for future lesson, however the CoC has renounced the book for good reason and as it pushes towards the goal of rendering Langhorne's deception to rest. So if Clyntahn is captured he deserves a trial followed by a quick execution after knowing his name will be used solely as a curse and a history lesson on evil for the rest of time. Still he will probably convince himself that really he is a martyr as his self-delusion is unparalleled.

tasos74, I agree that what you suggest is a likely fate for the group of four. You have said what you think should be Duchairn and Clyntahn's fates. But, what should happen to Maigwair and Trynair if they're caught?

tasos74 wrote:Humm, this is an interesting question of philosophy, ideology, and faith. I am in consenus with forcing Duchairn to work to clean his own mess as a novice under heavy supervision in humility for the rest of his days. That said I believe Clyntahn will have arranged for Maigwair and Trynair to die as consolidation of his own power. Clyntahn would also be the most prone to suicide rather then be captured, probably with massive death around him in a petty scorched earth policy. If Clyntahn is caught there is more then sufficient reason to apply the entire book of Schueler to him as a lesson for future lesson, however the CoC has renounced the book for good reason and as it pushes towards the goal of rendering Langhorne's deception to rest. So if Clyntahn is captured he deserves a trial followed by a quick execution after knowing his name will be used solely as a curse and a history lesson on evil for the rest of time. Still he will probably convince himself that really he is a martyr as his self-delusion is unparalleled.

Jay6722 wrote:tasos74, I agree that what you suggest is a likely fate for the group of four. You have said what you think should be Duchairn and Clyntahn's fates. But, what should happen to Maigwair and Trynair if they're caught?

tasos74 wrote:Humm, this is an interesting question of philosophy, ideology, and faith. I am in consenus with forcing Duchairn to work to clean his own mess as a novice under heavy supervision in humility for the rest of his days. That said I believe Clyntahn will have arranged for Maigwair and Trynair to die as consolidation of his own power. Clyntahn would also be the most prone to suicide rather then be captured, probably with massive death around him in a petty scorched earth policy. If Clyntahn is caught there is more then sufficient reason to apply the entire book of Schueler to him as a lesson for future lesson, however the CoC has renounced the book for good reason and as it pushes towards the goal of rendering Langhorne's deception to rest. So if Clyntahn is captured he deserves a trial followed by a quick execution after knowing his name will be used solely as a curse and a history lesson on evil for the rest of time. Still he will probably convince himself that really he is a martyr as his self-delusion is unparalleled.

Jay,

They would face the same fate as Clyntahn with scrupulously fair and exactly trials with the large mounds of evidence that has been provided to Charis already. After their obvious guilt is exposed in a very open and public trial, they will be executed quickly, which is better then they deserve. Then the rest of the hierarchy would be exposed for their corruption and tried. There is no better way to de-legitimize "Mother Church" then open her dark places to the light and show that almost the entire hierarchy is more debased and debauched then most of the rest populace combined.

Alright tasos74, If that is what you feel should be done then it is what you feel should be done.

tasos74 wrote:

Jay6722 wrote:tasos74, I agree that what you suggest is a likely fate for the group of four. You have said what you think should be Duchairn and Clyntahn's fates. But, what should happen to Maigwair and Trynair if they're caught?

tasos74 wrote:Humm, this is an interesting question of philosophy, ideology, and faith. I am in consenus with forcing Duchairn to work to clean his own mess as a novice under heavy supervision in humility for the rest of his days. That said I believe Clyntahn will have arranged for Maigwair and Trynair to die as consolidation of his own power. Clyntahn would also be the most prone to suicide rather then be captured, probably with massive death around him in a petty scorched earth policy. If Clyntahn is caught there is more then sufficient reason to apply the entire book of Schueler to him as a lesson for future lesson, however the CoC has renounced the book for good reason and as it pushes towards the goal of rendering Langhorne's deception to rest. So if Clyntahn is captured he deserves a trial followed by a quick execution after knowing his name will be used solely as a curse and a history lesson on evil for the rest of time. Still he will probably convince himself that really he is a martyr as his self-delusion is unparalleled.

Jay,

They would face the same fate as Clyntahn with scrupulously fair and exactly trials with the large mounds of evidence that has been provided to Charis already. After their obvious guilt is exposed in a very open and public trial, they will be executed quickly, which is better then they deserve. Then the rest of the hierarchy would be exposed for their corruption and tried. There is no better way to de-legitimize "Mother Church" then open her dark places to the light and show that almost the entire hierarchy is more debased and debauched then most of the rest populace combined.

Jay,

My reasoning is that the CoC has rejected the book of Schueler's grotesque punishments as part of their seperation from the temple loyalists. Although Clynthan does deserve those punishments, he will not get them to avoid and future ideology from copying this barbarism. The inner circle knows this is part of the initial gambit to drive wedges into the writ to make it easier to disprove later.

My Idea wouls revolve around exile somwhere very very remote like the southren tip of MacPhersons Lament or ome of the islands in Ruikai Bay with nothin but the clothes on there backs.