New Manty ship ideas.

Something to keep in mind about new ships, RMN has stayed away from specialist designs as often as possible. Sometimes it's unavoidable, as it is in today's Navy, but most of the time they want to balance the rolls out as much as they can. Especially when on a peacetime footing.

Fireflair wrote:Something to keep in mind about new ships, RMN has stayed away from specialist designs as often as possible. Sometimes it's unavoidable, as it is in today's Navy, but most of the time they want to balance the rolls out as much as they can. Especially when on a peacetime footing.

Yes, but SD(P) and CLAC are distinct combat roles that require completely different approaches to shipbuilding, manning, and have completely different logistical needs. Yes, having generalist designs is what Honorverse navies are going for, but in this case, you have design philosophies that are almost diametrically opposed to each other. Is it technically possible to build something that can carry LACs and a podload? Sure, we've seen that demonstrated. But, and this is the sticking point, the resulting design not only combined the strengths of both classes, it also combined its weaknesses.

A purpose-built unit like that may be more durable, may be able to alleviate the consequences of the many compromises necessary to make it work, but would it ultimately be a better, more economical platform? I doubt it. Navys are always looking for more ways to do the most with the least, but I think this sort of hybrid design is going too far in its pursuit of "generalistness", so far in fact that it is too specialized to be of much use outside of a rather narrow set of mission profiles.

As I see it, the only advantage an SD(P) or a CLAC has over a DD or CL is it's Marine compliment. This will hold true unless another navy (other than allies) put a successful design in space. And how often do you actually need a full battalion of Marines? In the event of a natural disaster, maybe. Then it might be good to have a whole bunch of uninvolved but motivated personnel. Or SAR after combat, if the damaged ship still has people feeling rambunctious. For most other situations a company or maybe a platoon works just fine.

Once some kind of peace deal is worked out, the SDs and CLACs will be the first to be mothballed. Manticore will probably be able to keep 8-10 DDs or CLs in service for the same personnel and maintenance costs, equating to more hulls in more places, able to do more missions. If completely new weapons systems are developed, it might be necessary to design new capitol ships. otherwise "good enough" is good enough.

KNick wrote:Once some kind of peace deal is worked out, the SDs and CLACs will be the first to be mothballed. Manticore will probably be able to keep 8-10 DDs or CLs in service for the same personnel and maintenance costs, equating to more hulls in more places, able to do more missions. If completely new weapons systems are developed, it might be necessary to design new capitol ships. otherwise "good enough" is good enough.

I think what happened after the last "peace" was worked out will prevent the RMN from doing that, especially once they settle down their new Imperial territories. They need to be able to project a large strategical force to deter anyone from attacking them.

There's already textev that some thinkers in Manticore have noticed the Andermani will run out of expansion space in a few decades. If the RMN isn't sufficiently strong to deter the IAN at that point... not to mention any ex-League polities resenting Manticore's part in the collapse of the League.

It would be like the USA disarming in the fifties. I think the Manties have really kicked a hornet's nest loose by demonstrating that anyone can apply new innovations to naval combat; the MAlign with its improved hyper generator and new spider drive only exacerbates this. Every government will be investing in R&D and espionage.

I still don't see the advantage of the spider drive outside of surprise system ambushes. In combat with other ship they are next to useless and without wedge defenses. A Shrike B would totally dominate a spider driveship in combat. It might be able to sneak upon it but after that it is totally defenseless. Like Honour escaping from Hell.

I suppose the spider drive ships might be able to take out a parked fleet but if that fleet gets a wedge up the spiders are dead.

As such I suppose the next Manty tech should be some kind of active grav FTL radar. Or some kind of spider drive homing missile, like a HARM or ALARM missile.

Lord Skimper wrote:I still don't see the advantage of the spider drive outside of surprise system ambushes. In combat with other ship they are next to useless and without wedge defenses. A Shrike B would totally dominate a spider driveship in combat. It might be able to sneak upon it but after that it is totally defenseless. Like Honour escaping from Hell.

Spider drive ships are big. Like, really big. Like, you remember that discussion about hyper-capable forts a little while ago? Detweilers are essentially those, with the added wrinkle of being currently undetectable. Sure, they have no wedge, but think how many times recently we've heard about dozens of missiles wasting themselves on the wedge but the ship being destroyed anyway by overwhelming fire? In the age of pod-layer combat, the wedge is no longer the impenetrable defence it once was.

In your hypothetical Shrike vs Spider, the Shrike is dead. Sure, it can approach faster and get some shots off, but then it dies. The best it can hope for is cratering the spider's armour - and even that assumes it can find the bloody thing in the first place.

It is going to be at least decades before anything close to an uneasy peace is worked out with those political entities that form out of the SL and the Grand Alliance.
That is presumung that the Alignment is decisively defeated in the short them vs multiple decades of strikes agaisnt it's enemies and the very real likelyhood that the Alignment has more than one base like Darius or at least places that they control like the RF and continue to manipulate things.
Untill then, SEM is only going to be scrapping ships that are too damaged or so ancient that they can not perform any usefull funtion.

Werrf wrote:

Lord Skimper wrote:I still don't see the advantage of the spider drive outside of surprise system ambushes. In combat with other ship they are next to useless and without wedge defenses. A Shrike B would totally dominate a spider driveship in combat. It might be able to sneak upon it but after that it is totally defenseless. Like Honour escaping from Hell.

Spider drive ships are big. Like, really big. Like, you remember that discussion about hyper-capable forts a little while ago? Detweilers are essentially those, with the added wrinkle of being currently undetectable. Sure, they have no wedge, but think how many times recently we've heard about dozens of missiles wasting themselves on the wedge but the ship being destroyed anyway by overwhelming fire? In the age of pod-layer combat, the wedge is no longer the impenetrable defence it once was.

In your hypothetical Shrike vs Spider, the Shrike is dead. Sure, it can approach faster and get some shots off, but then it dies. The best it can hope for is cratering the spider's armour - and even that assumes it can find the bloody thing in the first place.

Ghosts and Sharks are also spider drive ships, as are the ~5kton graser torp. The Detweilers are merely the top of the heap. They not only have no wedge, they have no sidewalls to protect their armor. Yes, a large ship can generate a bubble sidewall, but it cannot generate the bubble sidewall while the spider is running. So Lord Skimpers basic point remains: spider drive ships place much of their protection in the basket of not being seen. Once they are seen, their chances of survival plummets.

Yes, a Detweiler can probably swat a Shrike ( something the other spiderdrive ship could not easily do. ) But to do so, it has to use it's weapons, letting everyone know where it is at and has to stop dead to fire up the bubble wall to keep the Shrike (now with advanced bow-wall Graser lensing!) from opening it up like a soup can. Either way, every other defensive unit in system will localize it and pound it mercilessly - it can't run and has to choose between protection or attempting to hide.

Brigade XO wrote:It is going to be at least decades before anything close to an uneasy peace is worked out with those political entities that form out of the SL and the Grand Alliance.
That is presumung that the Alignment is decisively defeated in the short them vs multiple decades of strikes agaisnt it's enemies and the very real likelyhood that the Alignment has more than one base like Darius or at least places that they control like the RF and continue to manipulate things.
Untill then, SEM is only going to be scrapping ships that are too damaged or so ancient that they can not perform any usefull function.

Perhaps I should have said if and when, instead. I did not mean to imply it would be soon, but once things settle down, the capitol ships will be the first to see reductions. I also specified mothballed, not scrapped. Right now, the government can justify keeping all of those ships in commission. However, once there is a seeming end to hostilities, the electorate will demand those reductions. Unless the then current government can convince them the extra expense is worth it. Absent an actual shooting war, most of them will see it as a drain on the economy. For that matter, without a visible enemy, members of the government might feel the same way.

KNick wrote:As I see it, the only advantage an SD(P) or a CLAC has over a DD or CL is it's Marine compliment. This will hold true unless another navy (other than allies) put a successful design in space. And how often do you actually need a full battalion of Marines? In the event of a natural disaster, maybe. Then it might be good to have a whole bunch of uninvolved but motivated personnel. Or SAR after combat, if the damaged ship still has people feeling rambunctious. For most other situations a company or maybe a platoon works just fine.

"Only advantage" is a bit much. Yes, a Wolfhound, Avalon, or especially Roland might be able mission kill a SLN SD; and any of them should be more than a match for a SLN BC or two. But they're still something of a glass cannon; if anything big does manage to end up in range and land a hit they're going to get hurt badly

And against a Lenard Detwiler they're not likely to fair so well. (Since the first indication is likely to be several pods of missiles going off in your face)

And SD(P) not only has far more combat endurance (it and throw more missile for a much longer time) it also has vastly tougher active and passive defenses and can hack getting caught in energy range of any SLN combatant. (However unlikely that may be).


Yes, once peace is reestablished it's quite likely that the size of navies will shrink, and that more of the heaviest combatants will be mothballed or scrapped than the lighter one. But that doesn't mean against a near-equal tech opponent a CA can stand up against an SD. You can scale back, but you've still got to keep an eye on what potential enemies might be doing. And there's still going to be a solid wall of SD(P)s and CLACs (unless some other top end capital ship design supersedes them); given Manticore's economic mussels that wall is likely to be significantly larger than their pre-war build-up size but far smaller than their peak mid-war size.