New Manty ship ideas.

waddles for desert wrote:

SWM wrote:Uh, I don't see that as plausible. I expect that using the wedge as an inertial sump requires a direct connection to the impeller nodules producing the wedge.

How does the wedge know whether a node is on a LAC or is one of a set of nodes on a larger ship?

It should be possible. There is just nothing to indicate that anything has been done to accomplish it. It would require provisions to tie the LAC node(s) in with the node set of the host ship.

DW can write this any way he wants to or not at all. Maybe there is too much disparity in the size/power of the nodes. Maybe they come up with a "teat" node that can feed the LACs. (Imagine Horace, and later Scotty, explaining that conception to the seemingly staid admiral Hemphill.) Who knows? But, he has created a 'verse that evolves and advances.

I don't think you can simply latch onto a nearby wedge and use it as a sump. I think you need to connect to the wedge through the impeller that is generating it. Sure, David can write it any way he wants, and there is no textev either way on this. But I personally find the idea of using another ship's wedge for a sump implausible.

Any normal pirate that makes a run at a single ship or small convoy and finds itself confronted by 8 to 12 RMN LACs inside the hyperlimit of a system is screwed. They will have to surrender if they survive the intial engagement.
It is not that there can't be more pirates filling up vacancys in the food chain when one gets taken out, it is that pirates (even really bold ones) will quickly decide that having a bunch of known pirate ships in their usual hunting grounds either vanish or get listed in the "captured/exicutede" notices published by RMN or local governments is a very strong indication they should find somewhere less leathal. Perhaps Solly space?

Carrying 8 to 12 LACs in a cargo hold and either setting up to deploy or actually deploying them each time they come out of hyperspace into a system should work against run of the mill pirates. My sticking point is bastardizing a freigher as some kind of Escort CLAC.

2 LAC per Freighter in a special container. No recharge no ammo just life support and access to the freighter carrying them.

This will take up less than 5% of cargo space, and 12 extra passengers (assuming 6 crew per Shrike).

1 freighter 2 Shrike. 6 freighters 12 Shrike. Freighters don't need anything other than one cargo module per side which flush mount with their own hatch. No weapons no ammo on the freighters.

If you are in a tincan you are not going to waste more than one missile on an unarmed freighter. You certainly are not going to fire more missiles than a pair of Shrike can intercept.

Limpet 2 Shrikes to the outside when they leave a planet with an itinerary that means they are going to pass through hostile space on one of the legs.

Tractor is running off a fission plant with 18 year service life(hell they can even man one person on the plant if they want/need). They go out air locks and man said Shrike when they get to the area that may be dangerous. Sure they can only stay out there for a month before some other consumable means they have to pass things from the inside to the outside of the hull to restock.

Impact to the ship, 20(maybe) extra passengers nothing else.

That one freighter and 2 Shrike's will clean the clock of anything including a SLN BC. Well after it happens once or twice the SLN BC may have a chance. If they start using their pathetic RDs to go commerce raiding on an individual merchant that is out and about.


What is the reason to have them inside the skin of the Merchant? I just don't understand that need.

T2M

thinkstoomuch wrote:Limpet 2 Shrikes to the outside when they leave a planet with an itinerary that means they are going to pass through hostile space on one of the legs.

Tractor is running off a fission plant with 18 year service life(hell they can even man one person on the plant if they want/need). They go out air locks and man said Shrike when they get to the area that may be dangerous. Sure they can only stay out there for a month before some other consumable means they have to pass things from the inside to the outside of the hull to restock.

Impact to the ship, 20(maybe) extra passengers nothing else.

That one freighter and 2 Shrike's will clean the clock of anything including a SLN BC. Well after it happens once or twice the SLN BC may have a chance. If they start using their pathetic RDs to go commerce raiding on an individual merchant that is out and about.


What is the reason to have them inside the skin of the Merchant? I just don't understand that need.

T2M

I thought RFC said once the 18 years was a typo/thinko and it should have been 18 months. Either way, plenty of time to power tractors going throughout a normal cruise. (Now whether tractors are rated to run continuously for weeks at a time is a difference question)

But I agree that a couple Shrikes should be able to put some serious hurt on anything smaller/less capable than a solo SLN BC. So plenty to handle run of the mill pirates; but likely not enough to stand up to a significant commerce raiding force.


OTOH if you've got a reason to suspect a real military raiding force you should restrict traffic only to convoys with serious escort.

thinkstoomuch wrote:

kzt wrote:How many pirate attacks are you planning to survive on a single trip?

This post actually got me thinking about some stuff, thank you. Like how many actions in one cruise we are shown in the books by one ship. Then I chase down a couple of other rabbit holes and the following thought came to me.

HMS Wayfarer was armed like a BC or BB, better in lot of ways. Our heroine then treated it like it was a BC or a BB. With predictable results.

If you arm these paper ships like they are something they are not you might get away with it once, twice even three times or more ... but somewhere, somebody is going to think it is worth more than it is. Bunch of people get killed for little or no return. Think in the OotD how the F-22s shooting down some transports affected other humans thoughts on resistance.

Need to rethink a lot of my past thoughts of other such examples in the series.

Happy Thoughts,
T2M

Let us put those thoughts together.

First, you have your standard grade independent pirates. It is rare for them to have anything even as powerful as an antiquated light cruiser. Usually, they have much less.

Standard anti-piracy patrols usually have to work diligently to contrive encounters with these guys. They must either hide in stealth and hope to ambush them, or they rush from system to system hoping for a chance encounter as they come out of hyper pretending to be a merchant vessel. The odds of an encounter are poor either way unless they have very good intelligence or unless pirate activity is uncommonly intense.

Q ships and armed merchant cruisers such as those belonging to Bachfish look attractive to these guys; they look like what the pirates are trying to find. The chances of an encounter are much better. And, these guys are the prey Q ships are meant for. Unless the Q ship screws up by the numbers, they can squash these guys like bugs.

Next, you have pirates that are part of rogue navies - Warneke's fleet, the guys that ambushed Bachfish with a heavy cruiser and the guys with battlecruisers that nailed Saganami. These are much less common than the standard grade pirates. Q ships should not knowingly be sent near these guys. These guys require a real base to operate from. Depending upon the appreciation of the opposing force, you go after these guys and their base with heavy cruisers, battlecruisers or even SDs. If a Q ships happens to encounter these guys, it at least has a chance to surprise them with a powerful sucker punch. Bachfish's armed merchant cruisers are likely screwed if they run into these guys.

Finally, you have commerce raiders from "real navies". These have been rare in the areas Q ships are assigned to. Again, you do not intentionally send Q ships anywhere near these guys. If a Q ship happens to encounter them. they can do some damage at long range. But, they should be prepared to surrender as soon as the enemy has them in effective range. Bachfish's armed merchant cruisers have no business trying to fight these guys; give up and hope for exchange.

So, the second point, a Q ship has a real role when standard grade independent pirates are a significant problem. If, by misadventure, they encounter a Warneke, they may have a chance. If, by great misadventure, they encounter commerce raiders from a "real navy", they can try to do some damage from long range for the honor of the flag. But, they have no business continuing the fight once the enemy has them in range.

One more stab at the hybrid warship or AMC.

Now an AMC designed to be such could use the Typhoon Sub configuration. Not one hull but 3. Two larger ones about battle cruiser sized and a smaller (in diameter) on top and between them.

On one side a smaller CLAC hull, about 40 launch bays and on the other side an armoured pod laying hull like a BC-P. Extra Grazers and PD and CM on the pod laying side, just CM and PD on the CLAC side. One weak side and while only for use as a flanking ship it will give great capabilities.

This can be the size of a SD-P and mount SD-P weapons and CM and PD. The ship would be wider than tall but the Wolfhound already is like this, just not as big.

Even if the CLAC side is shot out, you still have the Armoured hulled side, armour might be all around the BC-P hull? Not ideal but not a complete disaster.

The BC-P hull would be 50% longer and wouldn't have as much internal requirements, these would be based in the 3rd dorsal hull.

Thus such a ship should be able to carry at least 50 to 75% more pods.

540 to 630 pods. If using Mk 16 pods they would have more missiles than the SD-P. Plus 40 LAC.

Not a full CLAC or SD-P but the best of both. One fully armed and armoured broadside, plus two fore and two aft mounts, they would be covered in a single end cap. Mounting larger SD weapons and defenses and capable of going toe to toe with any dreadnought or less plus with the punch to maintain sustained missile combat.

40 LAC would boost the counter missile capabilities to greater than that of Any SD-P.

The problem with the CLAC itself is that it can't fight against SD. It has very little armour and while a Shrike is good against anything up to Battleship levels it can't do too much to stop a SD. The CLAC would likely never get hit by the SD missiles but if they close the CLAC has to run away.

A hybrid doesn't bring as much fire power but unlike the CLAC it doesn't have to run away. One Hybrid would likely be able to punch out a dozen SD without taking any significant damage, unless the CLAC side is hit and even then that wouldn't destroy the ship. (Wouldn't be good) nor fatal, for the whole ship.

Lord Skimper wrote:This can be the size of a SD-P and mount SD-P weapons and CM and PD. The ship would be wider than tall but the Wolfhound already is like this, just not as big.

I have reservations about your design, but I need time to think about them. But this one comment did catch my eye and I took a quick look as the beam/draught ratios of various ships.

While the Wolfhound is noticeably wider than it is tall (51m wide, 29m tall) it's ratio of about 1.758x wider than tall is right in line with 'classic' destroyers; which I calculate from 1.692x (Havoc-class) to 1.777 (Culvern-class).

The Roland-class is the odd man out. It's ratio of 1.2x is closer to a CA (1.187x - 1.21x) than even a CL (1.282x - 1.314).

But SDs are much closer to circular, with ratios of (1.071x - 1.077x), and the couple AMCs we know are also pretty close to even - Astra-class 1.03x, Trojan-class 1.081x). That hints that a distinctly flattened 6+ Mton ship is likely going to be quite distinctive (at least if you get eyes on it)

There would need to be armoured cladding making an oval shape say Agamemnon BC(P) hull sizes for the two main hulls and either a Rowland or Wolfhound for the command hull, all lengthened to fit in a 1394 m x 240 m x 130-140 m overall hull size. Displacing about 7.7 million tons. With an invictus compensator assuming it scales up for this displacement this hybrid would accelerate at about the same speed of a Shrike b.

Assuming armour everywhere except on the LAC bays via the cladding, covering about 270-300+ degrees. The other 90-60 degrees keeping it away from the enemy. The pod load would be nearly double that of the BC(P). Say 720 using the mk16 14 missile per pod and assuming a shrike b can control 20 missiles on its way in and the hybrid 200 missiles it would be able to control 5x the missiles of a SD(P). In each wave.

Building can take place in non SD slips BC and DD slips for the inner hulls and final fitting in the cladding after that. Point Defence and Counter missile would be twice to thrice the levels of a SD(P).

Obviously a SD(P) would be better in close and a CLAC carries more LAC but one ship would have the capabilities of two, and two as much capability.

Again mk16 missiles are not mk23's but such a ship could carry either of these. Such a ship could be used with SD-P and CLAC in the wall of battle. Or on its own with many times greater flexibility than a squadron of Rowland or Saganami-C cruisers.

A Medusa's pod hold runs about 40% of the length of the ship. It is also, by definition, on the inside of the ship. As a corollary, everything that used to be in the ship's core is now displaced somewhere else, whether it be further out to the ship's skin, or further forward towards the bow.

Oh, but wait, now you're stuffing LACs into the ship as well, which means everything that was on the skin of the ship is now displaced somewhere else, but where? There's no where else for it to go. You've already stuffed all the power generation, crew spaces, broadside weapon systems, hyper generator, etc. all forward of the pod hold, so you cannot place anything else there. And you certainly can't stick LACs aft, because that would remove any room for the pods, and make what little of the pod hold remains absurdly easy to breach by enemy fire.

The Trojan Horses could only fit 180 pods and 12 LACs into a dreadnought sized hull. Even with automation, there is no way you're going to somehow fit over triple the LACs and pods it onto a marginally larger hull.