New Manty ship ideas.

The idea that a Manty ghost ride platform can't get passed a 100,000 km is why I suggested the Energy torpedo. 300,000 km range.

Not sure where the 90,000 ton mass and 14 energy torpedoes comes from, Honors CL at Basalisk? Remember that CL also carried a huge weapon call the grav lance. That would surely take up most of the 90,000 tons. The grav lance is so big that nothing smaller could carry it. Remember displacement tons.

Energy torpedoes are big because they are made to be fired by people on a ship. Fired many times. A lighter smaller automated energy torpeodo made to be fired tens of times would be a lot smaller.

As for the bottle size. It too could be a lot smaller. All it has to do is power one smaller energy torpedo tens of times. Ship mounted Energy torpedo's have a bottle that powers the energy torpedo's the wedge the hyper drive andWarshawski sail and any other weapons llike a graser or a grav lance. With only one energy torpedo to power, everything else is already powered in its own way, even a small bottle could be just used.

The Energy torpedo eliminates both counter missle and point defense and all problems with initial range, and speed launching at a very high fraction of light speed.

Even if such a system cannot damage a ship due to wedge protection; pods don't have wedge protection. Any deployed pods could be targeted at up to 300,000 km, well within stealth range. An energy torpedo will vapourise any pod before it fires. Any open throat will likewise present a nice target, but if not taking the ship out is the goal, taking out any and all missile pods would be ideal. Without the 50,000 podmissiles Filareta fired (or the MA fired), every single ship could have been captured. With a loss of life of only whoever was taken out by the Alignment.

As for the 6000 mass ton (displacement) which doesn't take crew space life support, nodes, armour, etc... Nor a grav lance or other weapons. Why not say 2000 tons max probably a lot less. 500 to 1000.

1000 displacement tons is 4000 m3. About 13% of a Shrike. Even 2000 tons would make it about a 1/4 of a Shrike size. Which is about the size of a ghost rider missile after the resizing. Should fit perfect.

At max range, fire to hit for an Energy torpedo would be, a fraction of a second more than one and much less than two seconds.

May not work well on an enemy ship but could, with sufficient numbers, take out any and all pods.

Lord Skimper wrote:May not work well on an enemy ship but could, with sufficient numbers, take out any and all pods.

Which is something proximity blasts with normal nukes can also do, except much more efficiently, with a simpler weapons system (This is something cited as a concern again and again over the course of the series!).

With the caveat that SITS isn't a 100% accurate data source, it gives the difference in magazine space between a regular Courageous-class CL and the refitted HMS Fearless as being 200 (360 vs. 160, or 20 missiles/tube).

The textev from OBS, Ch. 2 gives

...in addition to ripping out two-thirds of Fearless's missile tubes, the yard was gutting her magazine space, as well. Missile stowage was always a problem, particularly for smaller starships like light cruisers and destroyers, because an impeller-drive missile simply had to be big. There were limits to how many you could cram aboard, and since they'd decided to reduce Fearless's tubes, they'd seen no reason not to reduce her magazines, as well. After all, it had let them cram in four additional energy torpedo launchers.

(Bold emphasis mine)

Later in Ch. 31, those missiles are listed as massing 70 tons each.

Assuming those numbers are correct, that gives each ET launcher a mass of at least ((200/4)*70)=3500 tons.

So at best, you might get an ET launcher that's about 1-2% as big as a ship mounted one in that notional missile.

The Mistletoe platforms look like the better option.

Lord Skimper wrote:Energy torpedoes are big because they are made to be fired by people on a ship. Fired many times. A lighter smaller automated energy torpeodo made to be fired tens of times would be a lot smaller.

Yes, a smaller launcher would be smaller.

As for the bottle size. It too could be a lot smaller. All it has to do is power one smaller energy torpedo tens of times. Ship mounted Energy torpedo's have a bottle that powers the energy torpedo's the wedge the hyper drive andWarshawski sail and any other weapons llike a graser or a grav lance. With only one energy torpedo to power, everything else is already powered in its own way, even a small bottle could be just used.

So you're proposing to build a drone that not only carries a normal fusion plant or capacitors to power its onboard systems, but also a secondary fusion reactor that powers the ET launcher?

The Energy torpedo eliminates both counter missle and point defense and all problems with initial range, and speed launching at a very high fraction of light speed.

Unproven assumption. We've seen latest-gen antimissile envelopes beginning at a range of several lightseconds, not counting LAC-based launches.

Even if such a system cannot damage a ship due to wedge protection; pods don't have wedge protection. Any deployed pods could be targeted at up to 300,000 km, well within stealth range. An energy torpedo will vapourise any pod before it fires.

If it can get into range undetected, sure. However, the same is true of standard Mistletoe drones, which have already been proven to work and did not require massive innovations to produce.

Any open throat will likewise present a nice target, but if not taking the ship out is the goal, taking out any and all missile pods would be ideal. Without the 50,000 podmissiles Filareta fired (or the MA fired), every single ship could have been captured. With a loss of life of only whoever was taken out by the Alignment.

Arguably, those pods Filareta fired made no difference. Current RMN/GA missile defense was able to eat those missiles for breakfast; Any followup salvo would have posed even less of a problem. Grand Fleet didn't have to fire in order to get the SLN fleet to surrender, they just did it to be on the safe side.

1000 displacement tons is 4000 m3. About 13% of a Shrike. Even 2000 tons would make it about a 1/4 of a Shrike size. Which is about the size of a ghost rider missile after the resizing. Should fit perfect.

Assuming, of course, that all these minituarizations are actually possible, which we can't know without access to RFC's bible.

Isn't the maximum effective range of a graser between half to one million kilometres? If so, it beats the energy torpedo. It's also capable of punching through sidewalls, unlike the torpedo. Also a weapon with the speed of light, not a high percentage(as opposed to fraction - the maximum fraction is 1/2, or half) of.

Grasers fire in pulses that last longer than a laser and can be set to continuous fire for the expense of the graser mount itself. At passing velocities, this is more than enough to rake an entire ship's broadside from bow to stern.

Might be possible to substitute ET launchers for the graser on a Shrike... but why? Aside from that one battle during Buttercup where a LAC group caught wallers with cold impellers, every battle would have gone poorly with ET armament equipped.

Especially once bow and stern walls were introduced, providing starships with an ET-proof cocoon. The only way ETs can then be effective is when coupled with a grav lance, whose disadvantages are well known.

The MAlign has demonstrated graser torpedoes. Those are much more effective weapons to set R&D on, though laser-head missiles are still going to dominate combat for a while, particularly once the improved grav lensing is applied to the Mark 23 attack head. Judging by what it did for the Mark 16, it more than makes up for the two missiles removed from pods to make room for the Apollo control missile, which itself is a huge combat multiplier.

Cheopis wrote:

KNick wrote:Another factor that has not been mentioned. Filareta's arrival was know weeks in advance. If it was me, using the long-term endurance of Ghost Rider drones, I would have had them sitting along his projected route into the system, much like a minefield. Programmed to shut down as the fleet passed, with no active emissions and no wedge, they would be nearly undetectable. Any radar return that they did have would appear much smaller than they actually are. Small enough to be thought to be another piece of junk. Even if one was hit by a wedge, it would be barely noticeable. In that case, it is highly likely that Manticore could get one within 10,000KM of his ships.

Filareta was never really a threat. He might have been if there had been actual suprise on his side, but he never had that luxury. While it's never a good idea to underestimate the enemy, it's also not a good idea to be wasteful in your munitions deployment when your munitions are limited.

Ghost Rider recon drones are recoverable and designed to be refurbished. They are not a one-shot weapon, like a missile. That makes it possible to pre-place them wherever needed. Very few of them would actually be expended.

Lord Skimper wrote:Not sure where the 90,000 ton mass and 14 energy torpedoes comes from, Honors CL at Basalisk? Remember that CL also carried a huge weapon call the grav lance. That would surely take up most of the 90,000 tons. The grav lance is so big that nothing smaller could carry it. Remember displacement tons.

The primary reason why the grav lance cannot go onto anything smaller is because it requires a powerful wedge which cannot be generated by anything smaller. We have pointed you to the infodumps from David Weber about this several times. The grav lance takes up a small enough amount of space that the RMN was willing to install them on most larger ships for many years even though they didn't think they would ever be used. It must not have cost them much in offensive capacity or they wouldn't have bothered.

Energy torpedoes are big because they are made to be fired by people on a ship. Fired many times. A lighter smaller automated energy torpeodo made to be fired tens of times would be a lot smaller.

As for the bottle size. It too could be a lot smaller.

There is absolutely no reason to believe that either of those things is true.

As for the 6000 mass ton (displacement) which doesn't take crew space life support, nodes, armour, etc... Nor a grav lance or other weapons. Why not say 2000 tons max probably a lot less. 500 to 1000.

1000 displacement tons is 4000 m3. About 13% of a Shrike. Even 2000 tons would make it about a 1/4 of a Shrike size. Which is about the size of a ghost rider missile after the resizing. Should fit perfect.

Missiles are not ships. Missiles are measured actual tons, not by a measure of volume.

At max range, fire to hit for an Energy torpedo would be, a fraction of a second more than one and much less than two seconds.

Your estimate is too low. Energy torpedos do not travel at the speed of light. They are a lot slower than that.

Energy torpedo not a bomb as a bomb both needs to get up close and only hits one place at a time. Up close being more than one light second away. 300,000 km is one light second.

The Energy torpedo is fired at a high percentage of the speed of light. Yes a laser / graser is faster but a laser head only has a range of 25,000 km typical detonation to hit range. The Energy torpedo fires faster than any laser or graser mount. Possible exception being a defensive point cluster, but again that has a shorter range. The point defense cluster might make a good option should the energy torpedo ultimately fail. The Katana SD grade point defense cluster is able to take out a wedged LAC.

The Energy Torpedo Ghost Rider would not be for attacking ships nor would it have as much recon ability. While there is no reason for it to not be recoverable, making the Energy Torpedo as small as possible is a reason to make it only function a set number of times. Plus the likely hood is that once it fires it will be targeted. No point in making something that is in great danger of being destroyed operational for multiple deployments. Even if recovered it could be a replaceable unit. Recycle the old reload the new with bottle, even the bottle might not be an active fusion generator, but a charged "magazine". Similar to our "LAW" vs a "Carl G". One shot disposable unguided Anti Armour Weapon vs the light recoiless rifle. In Canada it was renamed "SPRAWL" for some stupid reason. "Single shot, Portable, Rocket or Recoilless, Anti armour, Weapon, Light". Yes the Energy Torpedo would be multi shot limited by its "bottle mag".

A fraction of light speed doesn't need to be a max of half. It could be 9/10 or three quarters. Just like a percentage can be 99% and doesn't automatically mean 50%.

However even at 50% at maximum range, let alone 100,000 km, maximum distance vs time would be 2 seconds. 0.67 seconds at 100,000 km.

This makes it a perfect weapon for stealth attack on un wedged targets, like a missile pod or a spider drive ship, or mines. Let alone what kind of damage such a system could do on merchant ships. Which don't have sidewalls.

As a mine itself it would have loiter ability, stealth and 1 light second attack range. Could wait for ships to drop their wedges, attack from stealth, go after, merchants and patrol or disrupt systems for months. Would need sophisticated AI.

SWM wrote:

Lord Skimper wrote:Not sure where the 90,000 ton mass and 14 energy torpedoes comes from, Honors CL at Basalisk? Remember that CL also carried a huge weapon call the grav lance. That would surely take up most of the 90,000 tons. The grav lance is so big that nothing smaller could carry it. Remember displacement tons.

The primary reason why the grav lance cannot go onto anything smaller is because it requires a powerful wedge which cannot be generated by anything smaller. We have pointed you to the infodumps from David Weber about this several times. The grav lance takes up a small enough amount of space that the RMN was willing to install them on most larger ships for many years even though they didn't think they would ever be used. It must not have cost them much in offensive capacity or they wouldn't have bothered.

Energy torpedoes are big because they are made to be fired by people on a ship. Fired many times. A lighter smaller automated energy torpeodo made to be fired tens of times would be a lot smaller.

As for the bottle size. It too could be a lot smaller.

There is absolutely no reason to believe that either of those things is true.

As for the 6000 mass ton (displacement) which doesn't take crew space life support, nodes, armour, etc... Nor a grav lance or other weapons. Why not say 2000 tons max probably a lot less. 500 to 1000.

1000 displacement tons is 4000 m3. About 13% of a Shrike. Even 2000 tons would make it about a 1/4 of a Shrike size. Which is about the size of a ghost rider missile after the resizing. Should fit perfect.

Missiles are not ships. Missiles are measured actual tons, not by a measure of volume.

At max range, fire to hit for an Energy torpedo would be, a fraction of a second more than one and much less than two seconds.

Your estimate is too low. Energy torpedos do not travel at the speed of light. They are a lot slower than that.

Let's start with something we know.

We have the actual Mass of the Mk 16 missile - it's 94 tons. Of which, somewhere between 30 and 50% it's mass is warhead and sensors. The mass difference between the mk 16 and the mk 13 single drive cruiser weight missile is 7 tons. Both shared a similiar warhead originally, so this 7 tons (8% gain in size) is the 2nd drive system and the differences between a single cruiser weight capacitor stack and a micro-Fusion reactor (plus some structure).

If we apply this same result to the 130 ton Mk 19 Single drive capitol missile, Assuming the mk 19 and the Mk 23 both us the same or similiar warheads, and add 8% for each extra stage, We can see the Mk 23 (with similiar levels of miniaturization as the mk 16) masses in the 150 Mton range.

The Original Ghost Rider MDM - the Mk 41 Capacitor missile, was a much larger beast, Assuming again both used the same warhead package (massing between 40 - 65 tons) each of the 3 drives and capacitors would mass between 65 and 90 tons. So a Capacitor MDM would mass 260-310 tons, with a warhead in the 40-65 ton range.

Also this is a missile - there is practically no void space inside the missile, so it's density will be much higher than a ship (with crew spaces, service corridors and maintenance access spaces.) so comparing the 2 volumemetrically is difficult.

Also, you are missing the reason the Missiletoe drone is so easy to hit in the last 100,000 km of it's approach, it has nothing to do with the drone's stealth - it needs active targeting to hit it's target, just like any missile. It has to turn on the lidar and Radar to paint the target, verify it's position, and hit it. Any E-torp system would need to do the same - especially at 300,000 km. Active targeting would allow it to be seen and engaged by anti-ship lasers and grasers on the target.

How about a platform the size of a missile pod, stealth enough to get into close enough range to fire an energy torpedo. With the aim to destroy no wedge platforms or lucky shots down a throat.

Dragons teeth and dazzlers just before firing to confuse an enemy ship.

A stealth drone for taking out mission assets.

Launch able from any pod laying craft.