New Manty ship ideas.

So as I'm flipping through my new copy of House of steel, I come across the best ship, in my opinion. The Trojan class Armed Merchant Cruiser.

What to do with this ship a proven anti pirate ship, well with any and all Caravan freighters hopefully there are enough, a blue print exists and parts as well. 3 per captured Sollie SD, could be made in short order. 393 merchant escort ships, anti pirate ships and civilian back up ships, could be made with reduced crew standards, extra space dedicated to marine deployment options.

Instead of 12 282-LAC's, for the same size constraints one could carry 18 total, 9 Shrike-b and 9 Katana, or some combination there of.
Sticking with the 180 missile pods. Even if using the captured Cataphrac missiles for internal use they would not impinge on RMN ammo supplies other than missile pods and LAC's. Even then, if the 63 odd SD's captured from Crandel where also so converted 1 to 3. This would give in relatively short order 582 ships with over 10,000 LAC's and over 100,000 Missile pods. Able to be deployed were needed. Plus protection for merchant fleets even in hyperspace.

While these are not modular, future design could keep modular options open.

AMC. Pg 399 House of Steel...

7.352 MT
80% acceleration of 152 G

Broadsides with 10 internal miisile tubes, 8 graders, 10 counter missiles, 10 point defense, each.
Fore 6 counter missiles, and 6 point defense.
Aft 6 missile pod bays, and 8 point defense.
All SD class.

180 missile pods.
12 282 LAC bays, however the 282 is 60% longer than the Shrike -b and Katana craft. Should (might) allow for 18 LAC.

Proven in pirate combat and in Escort roles.

100,000 missile pods would be less than 4% of the Manticore home world total.

Every merchant ship would be able to operate in Star Empire space and allied space with full escort protection against anything up to BC levels. Without costing any reduction of RMN fleet ship numbers.

Using mk16 missile pods. 30 AMC would pack over a greater ranger the same striking power and defensive screen of 360-540 LAC, of 400 Sollie SD's.

Lord Skimper wrote:So as I'm flipping through my new copy of House of steel, I come across the best ship, in my opinion. The Trojan class Armed Merchant Cruiser.

What to do with this ship a proven anti pirate ship, well with any and all Caravan freighters hopefully there are enough, a blue print exists and parts as well. 3 per captured Sollie SD, could be made in short order. 393 merchant escort ships, anti pirate ships and civilian back up ships, could be made with reduced crew standards, extra space dedicated to marine deployment options.

Those are almost the definition of a 'glass cannon' - huge offensive punch, but disastrously vulnerable if anything gets in range.

Their point defense was sub-par even for when they were deployed, even pre-war light units or pirate ships could hurt them quite badly if allowed within range.

Kind of the same problems that the Maya Sector's ammo ships - they can lay down tremendous fire by rolling pods but if they can't kill everything from beyond the range of return fire they're very likely to get badly mauled.

Now they were a lot of fun to read about because they gave us a first look at some technologies that would revolutionize warfare. But the 1st implementation shouldn't be confused for the best, or even a good, one.



Now you could build a very capable and survivable AMC / Q-ship of that displacement. But you can't get that from a quick and dirty merchant conversion - it'd be more like the Sirius from OBS - custom build from the ground up to give you balanced firepower, defense, and armor in a hull that's hard to distinguish from a real merchant.

From where will the Grand Alliance find yard space and workers to refit hundreds of merchant vessels? From where will the Grand Alliance find Cataphract sized pods? From where will the Grand Alliance find spare parts for the Sollie equipment when it inevitably breaks? Plus you are being incredibly naive if you think you can cram in 50% more LACs into the same space.

Jonathan_S wrote:Those are almost the definition of a 'glass cannon' - huge offensive punch, but disastrously vulnerable if anything gets in range.

Their point defense was sub-par even for when they were deployed, even pre-war light units or pirate ships could hurt them quite badly if allowed within range.

Kind of the same problems that the Maya Sector's ammo ships - they can lay down tremendous fire by rolling pods but if they can't kill everything from beyond the range of return fire they're very likely to get badly mauled.

Now they were a lot of fun to read about because they gave us a first look at some technologies that would revolutionize warfare. But the 1st implementation shouldn't be confused for the best, or even a good, one.



Now you could build a very capable and survivable AMC / Q-ship of that displacement. But you can't get that from a quick and dirty merchant conversion - it'd be more like the Sirius from OBS - custom build from the ground up to give you balanced firepower, defense, and armor in a hull that's hard to distinguish from a real merchant.

Yes, don't forget that even though the Wayferer was equipped with SD weapons, it's defenses were NOT SD quality - 1 single run in with a BC took her out - compare that to Bellerophon's run in with 4 BCs at the beginning of SVW, the DN shrugged off the hits from 4 BCs at point blank range and took them out in 1 broadside.

Just like a modern aircraft carrier the whole point is not to get close. That is what the LAC are for. Again up to but not including BC. Just like a Rowland or CL. Only with greater hyper space punch.

The missile pods would be mk16 or mk23 pods.

No ship yard needed. Do what Grayson does. You already have the the ship you want to use, you already have the parts for the ship sitting in orbit somewhere parked. Some are damaged so not all ships are going to be identical but that is OK.

This is an escort ship, what are you going to use for escort ships to disquade both pirates who know that the RMN has its hands full of Sollies, and Sollies out with light ships attacking the only thing they have any hope against, unarmed merchants.

Some of you keep saying you are going to have you BC escorting merchant ships, your Rowland your Sag. C are already holding the terminus all over the galaxy. The rest are support for your SD's, unless you plan to strip them of that support. Their all busy. One place in 2 to 5 years might start making 10 per additional year of some new SD design. Which hasn't been designed yet.

This is a proven design that makes use of parts that are at hand. Even with teams of fitters and from Weyland, who will not be needed at bolt hole for a few more years, you can get started on making escort vessels which are sitting around next to the captured SD's.

121 m x20m x20m 282 LAC size.
71 x20m x20m Shrike and Katana size.

Not putting more in the same space putting the same space to use for more smaller ships. Remember you haven't built them yet.

As for CM and PD one would prefer to use Manty designs but perhaps one could use Manty software. Manty sensors, which the Hauptman Cartel should have for use in his frigates, and the LAC will have.

The plots and things can be pulled from the Sollie SD's both main and backup are top notch made and identical. Software may be crap but the build quality is excellent.

In the 10 years it is going to take to build 100 truly awesome bolt hole express SD, with or without Streak drives, one can and will still do this. But one will also need to make do with you what one has, and one would very much like to have 600 carriers escorting civilian ships, dissuading pirates and holding backwater systems from opportunity seekers. While using all RMN ships in offensive or front line duties. Until something better can replace them. One could of course gut the RMN and its allies of all support ships, and hope that the holding actions they take to wait till their new/ships doesn't mean that the Sollies develops equal or better tech and start building it at say 1000 shipyards. Maybe you won't have waited on your advantage, maybe you won't get crushed. Maybe you won't go down as Highridges equal or inferior. Awful lot of maybes.

When and while you have the advantage you press the attack. Your advantage can disappear over night. Use it. Lots of people get killed that is what happens in a war, that is what they have signed up for, it is their job. A job nobody wants but they have the option to surrender. Something you don't want to do.

If you don't press the attack and they don't believe you about Mesan Alignment, which might go into hiding for a few years until its stealth navy is ready and the Manties are in a stalemate or crushed by the Sollies, especially if everyone is just waiting around.

You might want to save those lives, if that is your concern and surrender now.

Mind you the book sales might take a downturn.

Lord Skimper wrote:Just like a modern aircraft carrier the whole point is not to get close. That is what the LAC are for. Again up to but not including BC. Just like a Rowland or CL. Only with greater hyper space punch.

As Scheherazade's encounter with 2 Peep cruisers and Wayfarer's last battle proved, you cannot guarantee holding the range to what you want, especially with civilian drives.

The missile pods would be mk16 or mk23 pods.

If you have enough missiles to pack all these Q-ships with pods even after supplying the main fleet formations, you certainly don't have enough ammunition problems to warrant scavenging Cataphracts from Sollie vessels.

Moreover, even if they did have ammunition problems, they already have a significantly better solution available: Haven. No need to do silly things like stripping out Sollie-speced launchers, they just use Havenite missiles and launchers which are available in abundance.

No ship yard needed. Do what Grayson does. You already have the the ship you want to use, you already have the parts for the ship sitting in orbit somewhere parked. Some are damaged so not all ships are going to be identical but that is OK.

Grayson style yards were simply assembly points in space. They have no inherent heavy ancillary equipment suitable for refitting ships. That's what the hard yards were for. But the bulk of the yards were destroyed, and those that remain are going to be extremely taxed maintaining the existing fleet.

This is an escort ship, what are you going to use for escort ships to disquade both pirates who know that the RMN has its hands full of Sollies, and Sollies out with light ships attacking the only thing they have any hope against, unarmed merchants.

Attacks in hyper are rare. Unless you had precision intel about what routes vessels take in hyper, chances of interception would be vanishingly small. The mass bulk of pirate attacks and commerce raiding occurs in normal space. The Alliance already has perfectly serviceable n-space defenses intended to fend off cruiser-level raids, and has evolved procedures to help protect convoys while in transit.

Some of you keep saying you are going to have you BC escorting merchant ships, your Rowland your Sag. C are already holding the terminus all over the galaxy. The rest are support for your SD's, unless you plan to strip them of that support. Their all busy. One place in 2 to 5 years might start making 10 per additional year of some new SD design. Which hasn't been designed yet.

The number of vessels holding termini is quite small compared to the numbers of escorts available to the Alliance.

This is a proven design that makes use of parts that are at hand. Even with teams of fitters and from Weyland, who will not be needed at bolt hole for a few more years, you can get started on making escort vessels which are sitting around next to the captured SD's.

Already covered this above. Any surviving worker is desperately needed elsewhere. Converting freighters is not a useful allocation of available resources.

121 m x20m x20m 282 LAC size.
71 x20m x20m Shrike and Katana size.

Not putting more in the same space putting the same space to use for more smaller ships. Remember you haven't built them yet.

LACs dock bow in, so their length is immaterial to how much space is available for docking bays. The surface area required for LAC bays is exactly the same, so you are not going to be fitting more LACs into the same converted holds.

As for CM and PD one would prefer to use Manty designs but perhaps one could use Manty software. Manty sensors, which the Hauptman Cartel should have for use in his frigates, and the LAC will have.

The plots and things can be pulled from the Sollie SD's both main and backup are top notch made and identical. Software may be crap but the build quality is excellent.

Except it's built to completely different requirements than RMN stuff. You'd be spending months if not years just trying to solve the compatibility issues. You're trying to make two sets of software and hardware talk to each other, when neither was designed from the outset to do so.

In the 10 years it is going to take to build 100 truly awesome bolt hole express SD, with or without Streak drives, one can and will still do this. But one will also need to make do with you what one has, and one would very much like to have 600 carriers escorting civilian ships, dissuading pirates and holding backwater systems from opportunity seekers. While using all RMN ships in offensive or front line duties. Until something better can replace them. One could of course gut the RMN and its allies of all support ships, and hope that the holding actions they take to wait till their new/ships doesn't mean that the Sollies develops equal or better tech and start building it at say 1000 shipyards. Maybe you won't have waited on your advantage, maybe you won't get crushed. Maybe you won't go down as Highridges equal or inferior. Awful lot of maybes.

It's not going to take remotely close to 10 years for Bolthole to churn out SDs. They're going to do exactly the same thing they did for the Andermani. Any ship that is in a state capable of accepting Manticoran EW and fire control gets refit to that standard. Beowulf supplies any of the electronics that Haven can't build for itself. That's a year to a year and a half to get the first units off the line.

Addressing the rebuild work - The primary reason that worked for Grayson is they threw their huge space-based construction force at projects - all those workers are now either component atoms floating through space or working to rebuild what was destroyed at OB - without the workers, Grayson-style construction just doesn't work.

Addressing The need for such Ships - Piracy is not a major concern for the RMN in 1922 like it was in 1900 or 1910. With the acquition of Silensia by Manticore and the Andermani, Piracy as fallen to single digit percentages of what it was in 1915, and is continuing to fall. Without the deals with friendly governments, safehavens and loot brokerages Pirates found in slensia, businesss is much more difficult, not to mention, The RMN is now giving actual system patrolling more than lipservice.

95+% of ship-on-ship Piracy happens in N-space, and proper patroling and sensor systems in star systems keeps the pirates from having a chance at merchie interception without being detected and destroyed first. The RMN also set up "safe bubbles" of highly protected space on least time courses to planets and maintains a safe corridor to the planet.

The RMN needed to convoy ships before the acquition because the Silensian governments refused to protect and police their own space, Now, the RMN and IAN are providing that policing in a meaningful way and have no mercy on pirates. Ships can reliably enter a Silensia system and know there is a ship nearby to assist and it is being watched by friendly eyes.

The ships you are designing are not needed at the current time.

Lord Skimper wrote:Just like a modern aircraft carrier the whole point is not to get close. That is what the LAC are for. Again up to but not including BC. Just like a Rowland or CL. Only with greater hyper space punch.

The missile pods would be mk16 or mk23 pods.

No ship yard needed. Do what Grayson does. You already have the the ship you want to use, you already have the parts for the ship sitting in orbit somewhere parked. Some are damaged so not all ships are going to be identical but that is OK.

This is an escort ship, what are you going to use for escort ships to disquade both pirates who know that the RMN has its hands full of Sollies, and Sollies out with light ships attacking the only thing they have any hope against, unarmed merchants.

Some of you keep saying you are going to have you BC escorting merchant ships, your Rowland your Sag. C are already holding the terminus all over the galaxy. The rest are support for your SD's, unless you plan to strip them of that support. Their all busy. One place in 2 to 5 years might start making 10 per additional year of some new SD design. Which hasn't been designed yet.

This is a proven design that makes use of parts that are at hand. Even with teams of fitters and from Weyland, who will not be needed at bolt hole for a few more years, you can get started on making escort vessels which are sitting around next to the captured SD's.

121 m x20m x20m 282 LAC size.
71 x20m x20m Shrike and Katana size.

Not putting more in the same space putting the same space to use for more smaller ships. Remember you haven't built them yet.

As for CM and PD one would prefer to use Manty designs but perhaps one could use Manty software. Manty sensors, which the Hauptman Cartel should have for use in his frigates, and the LAC will have.

The plots and things can be pulled from the Sollie SD's both main and backup are top notch made and identical. Software may be crap but the build quality is excellent.

In the 10 years it is going to take to build 100 truly awesome bolt hole express SD, with or without Streak drives, one can and will still do this. But one will also need to make do with you what one has, and one would very much like to have 600 carriers escorting civilian ships, dissuading pirates and holding backwater systems from opportunity seekers. While using all RMN ships in offensive or front line duties. Until something better can replace them. One could of course gut the RMN and its allies of all support ships, and hope that the holding actions they take to wait till their new/ships doesn't mean that the Sollies develops equal or better tech and start building it at say 1000 shipyards. Maybe you won't have waited on your advantage, maybe you won't get crushed. Maybe you won't go down as Highridges equal or inferior. Awful lot of maybes.

So what are you going to do with your up to 70,000 idle freighters and these 200 some captured Sollie sd's?

Lord Skimper wrote:So what are you going to do with your up to 70,000 idle freighters and these 200 some captured Sollie sd's?

Mothball the freighters until business picks up again (Assuming that there are that many, and assuming that there is no business for them in areas outside the SL). Scrap the SDs for raw materials.