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Back from LA with Honorverse move news

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Re: Back from LA with Honorverse move news
Post by JustCurious   » Mon Aug 05, 2013 11:09 pm

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I think most of us accept the necessity of the energy beams being visible to show what is going on. Necessary artistic license.

But what I really hope and I expect most others here hope is that explosions in space do not look like explosions in an atmosphere. We want the explosions described in the books. No billowing opaque clouds. Just a momentary intense point of light , pieces flying away from it and perhaps a very disappearing fireball. Actually as SWM impied most of the visible light will come from the fireball which will spread into invisiblity very quickly indeed. Most of the intial flas will be in non visible wavelengths. Perhaps show the explosion as a a fireball suddenly appearing and spreading and fading in less than a second.

Bit please, pretty please with sugar on it, believable explosions.
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Re: Back from LA with Honorverse move news
Post by KNick   » Mon Aug 05, 2013 11:21 pm

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SWM wrote:Now for a closer look at a nuclear explosion. I've done some more reading. The tricky part is extracting the atmospheric effects from the descriptions.

<<SNIP>>
The explosions are quite easily visible on Grayson, even if we assume only a 1 Megaton bomb, and only 1/1000 of the radiated energy is in the visible spectrum. A 15 megaton bomb would be about 3 magnitudes brighter, or brighter than Sirius.


Thank you for taking the time to answer my questions so completely. So Abigail did get to stand out on that balcony and watch the battle.
_


Try to take a fisherman's fish and you will be tomorrows bait!!!
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Re: Back from LA with Honorverse move news
Post by waddles for desert   » Tue Aug 06, 2013 12:51 am

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SWM had enough to do without trying to account for gravity lenses directing the energy asymmetrically towards the rods that generate the intense beams.

Depending upon the efficiency of the gravity lensing, apparent magnitude may be much less in most directions, but much more at the point of aim and possibly perpendicular to the rods???
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Re: Back from LA with Honorverse move news
Post by kzt   » Tue Aug 06, 2013 1:20 am

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I suspect that by the time the fireball is emitting visible light the planar gravity field is gone, destroyed by the xray pulse. And the weaponized part is the xray pulse, the rest is just something that happens with the xray pulse.
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Re: Back from LA with Honorverse move news
Post by waddles for desert   » Tue Aug 06, 2013 8:45 am

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I meant to be a bit ironic, but you are probably correct,

The fudge factors were generous. It was an excellent post.
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Re: Back from LA with Honorverse move news
Post by namelessfly   » Tue Aug 06, 2013 8:58 am

namelessfly

First off, you are treating this as a Black Body radiation problem. When dealing with gas or plasma, radiative power is as much a function of density as surface area. Think about a star. The Chromosphere and Corona are much hotter than the Photosphere, but the radiative power of these outer layers of a star is negligible because the plasma is so tenuous.

(One of the subtleties of bomb pumped X-Ray lasers is that the lasing rods have to remain intimately connected to the actual bomb so that after the lasing media is pumped by the absorption of gamma rays from the explosion, the shockwave that propagates along the length of the still dense plasma that had once been the lasing rod compresses the plasma to stimulate lasing in the X-Ray spectrum.)

Secondly, you are ignoring the fact that the vast majority of the explosive energy is in the form of kinetic energy of the bomb residue. As the plasma cloud expands, the velocity of the particles becomes very uniform. In the absence of atmosphere for the residue to collide with, the effective, radiative temperature is an order of magnitude lower than you assume.

Thirdly, radiation in the visible spectrum requires electrons to have actually been recaptured by nuclei so that they can undergo the transitions in energy state that correspond to emissions in the visible portion of spectrum. By the time the plasma cloud has cooled sufficiently for electrons to be recaptured, it has expanded to such an extent that the rate of electron recapture becomes very low. Think of how we can see the gas cloud remnants from supernovae thousands of years after the event.

The bottom line is that the nuclear explosions from a space battle are going to be very visible, but only if you have an X-Ray or Gamma Ray telescope.





SWM wrote:Now for a closer look at a nuclear explosion. I've done some more reading. The tricky part is extracting the atmospheric effects from the descriptions.

When the bomb first explodes, the first thing that comes out is a burst of gamma rays, followed shortly by x-rays. This, of course, is what laserheads take advantage of to produce their x-ray lasers. The x-rays uniformly heat up the residue of the bomb.

In the first microsecond, the temperature of the residue is around 60 million degrees C or more. The residue radiates a nice blackbody spectrum, of course. This residue expands very rapidly. In an atmosphere, this would turn into blast and thermal effects, but not in space. 80% of the energy yield initially comes out in photons, and without an atmosphere, it is not converted to other effects.

Since there is no atmosphere, there is no fireball. But the residue radiates. As it expands, it cools rapidly. At a few microseconds into the explosion, the explosion is a few meters across and a temperature of tens of millions of degrees. By the time the explosion is 13 meters across, the temperature is down to 300,000 degrees. In an atmosphere, this would happen 100 microseconds into the explosion, but it will happen much faster without an atmosphere. Since the thermal radiation goes as the fourth power of the temperature, the total power being emitted has dropped by a factor of more than a thousand.

It is easy to see that the great majority of the energy is emitted in the first 100 microseconds. By 1 millisecond, the power emitted is a tiny fraction of what was emitted initially. It is fair to say that the flash occurs in the first millisecond or less. In an atmosphere, the radiated power is spread out over a much longer period, because it is absorbed and reradiated by the atmosphere, and much of the radiation comes from the hot shock wave. So I would agree that in an atmosphere, a flash of 1 second is reasonable. But without an atmosphere, even 1 millisecond is probably too long.

If we use a time of 1 millisecond and say that 80% of the yield is in a black-body spectrum, and assuming a 1 Megaton bomb, we get an effective power of 3.4e18 W.

Nameless is correct that much of this will be in non-visible wavelengths. It is a bit hard to guesstimate how much of the power would be in the visible range, especially with the temperature dropping so precipitously in the first millisecond. So let us assume that only 0.1% of the energy is emitted in the visible spectrum. Thus, the power in the visible spectrum is 3.4e15 W.

The luminosity of the sun is 3.8e26 W, and an absolute magnitude of 5. Thus, the sun is about 1.1e11 times brighter than the bomb. So we go through the calculations I demonstrated before. A factor of 10^11 is a difference of 28 magnitudes. So the bomb has an absolute magnitude of 33. Absolute magnitude is the apparent magnitude at 10 parsecs. The explosions in HoTQ took place at 150 million km. 10 parsecs is 3.1e14 km, or 2.0e6 times further, so the explosions in HoTQ will be 4.0e12 times brighter than magnitude 33. 4.0e12 is more than 31 magnitudes. That makes the explosions magnitude 2.

The explosions are quite easily visible on Grayson, even if we assume only a 1 Megaton bomb, and only 1/1000 of the radiated energy is in the visible spectrum. A 15 megaton bomb would be about 3 magnitudes brighter, or brighter than Sirius.
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Re: Back from LA with Honorverse move news
Post by waddles for desert   » Tue Aug 06, 2013 12:39 pm

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If we are talking a 78 ton missile, most of which is not a 15 MT warhead or lasing rods, given that gravity lensing is not perfectly efficient, you have some 50 to 70 tons of material in very close proximity to the blast that will probably radiate visible light of sufficient magnitude, and probably for a longer duration than in SWM's example.

.
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Re: Back from LA with Honorverse move news
Post by namelessfly   » Tue Aug 06, 2013 12:58 pm

namelessfly

waddles for desert wrote:If we are talking a 78 ton missile, most of which is not a 15 MT warhead or lasing rods, given that gravity lensing is not perfectly efficient, you have some 50 to 70 tons of material in very close proximity to the blast that will probably radiate visible light of sufficient magnitude, and probably for a longer duration than in SWM's example.

.



Read The Effects of Nuclear Weapons, paragraph 2.58.

The theoretical limit on the Yield to Mass ratio for a fusion bomb is about 4eex14 Joules per KG.

Practical limits for modern nuclear weapons are about 2MT/ton.

I would expect that most of mass of a missile in an Honorverse missile to be the nuclear explosive, lasing rod, and associated equipment.

Whatever the case, the energy to mass ratio is so damn high that the radiation will be predominantly as X-Rays rather visible light.
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Re: Back from LA with Honorverse move news
Post by SWM   » Tue Aug 06, 2013 2:28 pm

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namelessfly wrote:First off, you are treating this as a Black Body radiation problem. When dealing with gas or plasma, radiative power is as much a function of density as surface area. Think about a star. The Chromosphere and Corona are much hotter than the Photosphere, but the radiative power of these outer layers of a star is negligible because the plasma is so tenuous.

At no point in my calculations did I use the surface area of the explosion. I calculated the total power of the EM radiation over the entire sphere, which is independent of the surface area and the density. You yourself did the same thing--the explosion produces a certain amount of energy, in a certain amount of time. The only point at which discussion of a blackbody entered was to estimate how much of the EM radiation was in the visible frequencies. I believe you will agree that, regardless of the density and the surface area, the spectrum of the radiation of the superheated bomb remnants will be a blackbody spectrum?
[deleted paragraph]
Secondly, you are ignoring the fact that the vast majority of the explosive energy is in the form of kinetic energy of the bomb residue. As the plasma cloud expands, the velocity of the particles becomes very uniform. In the absence of atmosphere for the residue to collide with, the effective, radiative temperature is an order of magnitude lower than you assume.

Actually, I was basing my numbers on several sources which said that initially (i.e. before the energy hits the atmosphere) 80% of the yield is in the form of photons. That's where the 80% came from in my discussion. In an atmospheric explosion, quite a bit of the electromagnetic energy gets converted into kinetic energy by heating up the atmosphere and producing a shock wave. But I believe that in space, most of the energy will be in EM radiation. If you have sources with better numbers, I'll be happy to incorporate it.
Thirdly, radiation in the visible spectrum requires electrons to have actually been recaptured by nuclei so that they can undergo the transitions in energy state that correspond to emissions in the visible portion of spectrum. By the time the plasma cloud has cooled sufficiently for electrons to be recaptured, it has expanded to such an extent that the rate of electron recapture becomes very low. Think of how we can see the gas cloud remnants from supernovae thousands of years after the event.

That is not true. Blackbody thermal radiation does not require recaptured electrons. In fact, a plasma will produce a spectrum much closer to blackbody than any material with bound electrons.
The bottom line is that the nuclear explosions from a space battle are going to be very visible, but only if you have an X-Ray or Gamma Ray telescope.

I've shown my numbers. The only possibly valid point you have introduced is the question of how much of the energy of a nuclear explosion in space is in the form of kinetic energy of the bomb fragments. In order to change the result by 5 magnitudes, you would have to say that less than 1% of the yield of the bomb goes into electromagnetic radiation.
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Re: Back from LA with Honorverse move news
Post by namelessfly   » Tue Aug 06, 2013 3:07 pm

namelessfly

You articulated my point far better than I have been doing by asking this rhetorical question.

I believe you will agree that, regardless of the density and the surface area, the spectrum of the radiation of the superheated bomb remnants will be a blackbody spectrum?

A nuclear explosive is not initially an emission of energy as black body radiation.
Most of the energy yield from the bomb is in the form of gamma rays, X Rays and KE of Neutrons and the expanding plasma. Depending on size and geometry, most of the energy from the Gamma Rays, X-rays and Neutrons will not be captured by the expanding plasma cloud to be reradiated as black body radiation.





SWM wrote:
namelessfly wrote:First off, you are treating this as a Black Body radiation problem. When dealing with gas or plasma, radiative power is as much a function of density as surface area. Think about a star. The Chromosphere and Corona are much hotter than the Photosphere, but the radiative power of these outer layers of a star is negligible because the plasma is so tenuous.

At no point in my calculations did I use the surface area of the explosion. I calculated the total power of the EM radiation over the entire sphere, which is independent of the surface area and the density. You yourself did the same thing--the explosion produces a certain amount of energy, in a certain amount of time. The only point at which discussion of a blackbody entered was to estimate how much of the EM radiation was in the visible frequencies. I believe you will agree that, regardless of the density and the surface area, the spectrum of the radiation of the superheated bomb remnants will be a blackbody spectrum?
[deleted paragraph]
Secondly, you are ignoring the fact that the vast majority of the explosive energy is in the form of kinetic energy of the bomb residue. As the plasma cloud expands, the velocity of the particles becomes very uniform. In the absence of atmosphere for the residue to collide with, the effective, radiative temperature is an order of magnitude lower than you assume.

Actually, I was basing my numbers on several sources which said that initially (i.e. before the energy hits the atmosphere) 80% of the yield is in the form of photons. That's where the 80% came from in my discussion. In an atmospheric explosion, quite a bit of the electromagnetic energy gets converted into kinetic energy by heating up the atmosphere and producing a shock wave. But I believe that in space, most of the energy will be in EM radiation. If you have sources with better numbers, I'll be happy to incorporate it.
Thirdly, radiation in the visible spectrum requires electrons to have actually been recaptured by nuclei so that they can undergo the transitions in energy state that correspond to emissions in the visible portion of spectrum. By the time the plasma cloud has cooled sufficiently for electrons to be recaptured, it has expanded to such an extent that the rate of electron recapture becomes very low. Think of how we can see the gas cloud remnants from supernovae thousands of years after the event.

That is not true. Blackbody thermal radiation does not require recaptured electrons. In fact, a plasma will produce a spectrum much closer to blackbody than any material with bound electrons.
The bottom line is that the nuclear explosions from a space battle are going to be very visible, but only if you have an X-Ray or Gamma Ray telescope.

I've shown my numbers. The only possibly valid point you have introduced is the question of how much of the energy of a nuclear explosion in space is in the form of kinetic energy of the bomb fragments. In order to change the result by 5 magnitudes, you would have to say that less than 1% of the yield of the bomb goes into electromagnetic radiation.
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