[SPOILER] Bren guns, smaller calibres, and dragons, oh my!

*said ala Wizard of Oz*

Thinking on later novels, I hope we have more infantry battles as the various groups inevitably head to war.
Point:
Black powder weapons work best with larger bores due to it's finicky combustion issues
And older less precise machinery is much better for building larger simpler weapons

So, a .45 revolver made technical and economic sense in the Jihad
It won't though in wars to come, since Charis has smokeless powder and much better manufacturing

It doesn't really take a lot to render a Human Being "hors de combat", so in actual battle you are better of with a 13+ shot 9mm than a 6 or 7 shot .45 because you WILL miss and more shots are better when things get hairy (Seijin Merlins and Nimue are accuracy exceptions! Lol)

Or a rifle bullet between 5mm and 7mm provided it's high velocity

The Lee Enfield rifles the Charisians seem to have ARE the best battle rifle the world has ever known...it's still used today because in extreme conditions it will work when others simply cannot

But the original .303 cartridge the UK used sucked because it was rimmed, caused jamming and problems and was still over powered
Note UK designed the .303 to "tumble" in semi-secrecy so it was devastating on impact (MK VII round)

Owl etc would probably suggest I think, Charis moving to something like a 6.5mm Grendel round, it's far and away the best infantry round, being in the "Goldilocks" zone, and allowing efficient automatic weapons as its rimless (less jams)

Weight, efficiency, actual combat ranges etc are all.issues
For decades people "over gunned" the military, wrongly, and are now going back to what some realized that 6.5mm is best

People would complain more about an enemy who walked away from a wound than notice the many more who didn't!
So Human Nature tended to.push for over powered guns
Bitish had a fantastic .280 rifle but in 1951 idiots in Pentagon forced the 7.62mm round onto NATO...and thus the incredibly far ahead of its.time EM 2 rifle died


The best light machine gun ever is also British
Well ,Czech/British...the fabulous Bren Gun
Now if Charis had 6.5mm Bren guns, which could be lighter due to smaller cartridge and OH would it be nice to shave say 3 or 4 pounds off the weight of machine gun some poor berk has to carry (seriously)
Then Charis' more effective manoeuvre military has portable firepower to complement it
There are many reasons to prefer light machine guns

Maybe have Vickers water cooled at company or battalion level for defence?
Too heavy for manoeuvre, but ideal in defence, on armoured vehicle, especially against massed infantry attacks
Incredibly reliable weapon

A.new bolt.action rifle.in same cartridge, 20 round magazine, cut down stock, lighter, and small combat scope would help troops, let the magazine work in Bren gun....
You have a sweet weapon system!
Or perhaps the EM 2 rifle

Optics greatly improve combat hit rates, however separating nitrogen to fill "fog free" scopes.might be tricky?
A "marksman" version say 1 per platoon for dealing with distant enemies would also be good.idea

A new high spec sniper rifle in larger calibre, hey Owl can reference .338 Lapua or such like

Bayonets are not nearly as good as.giving every squaddie a Browning HiPower or similar
What would you rather have in nasty "furball", a pistol or a knife?

Charis was considering a man-held rocket, so a "dragon killer", an RPG 2 or such clone with shrapnel added, would rock
As would a grenade.launcher...or Sterling submachine gun to replace the 10 gauge shotguns

I do love that RFC likes and uses British weaponry in the series to an extent, so I'm just encouraging it


Ok I know folk.love the ships in the series, so do I, but hey, I'd like the "Tommies" to get some upgrades, too!
Give the old gear to North Harchong etc, folk still use Lee Enfield MK IV and SMLEs in Afghanistan

My 2 cents

SilverbladeTE wrote:...
The Lee Enfield rifles the Charisians seem to have ARE the best battle rifle the world has ever known...

I'll take Gen Patton's opinion over yours :

The M1 rifle was named after its Canadian-American designer, John Garand. It was the first standard-issue semi-automatic military rifle. By all accounts the M1 rifle served with distinction. General George S. Patton called it "the greatest battle implement ever devised".

BP guns tended to use larger bores because of a lack of velocity.

Historic Buffalo gun rounds that are even more 'powerful' than the issue Charisan round (it's close to the .45-70 Government) barely broke the sound barrier at the muzzle but they were accurate at over 1000 yards (the first Creedmoor 1000 yard match was held in 1874) and were used to make the largest land animal on North America basically extinct in less than a decade.

Remember mass times velocity squared?

If you can't produce the velocity, then you need to up the mass. With bullets, that means either making it longer or bigger around. The period .44, .45 and .50 heavy bullets (400-600gr) have been tested in modern times- with modern military weapon testing equipment- and found to be lethal at over 3,000 yards- even if they were going slow enough that they were almost visible at that range.

A link to a write up on the testing.

http://powderburns.tripod.com/sharps.html

Smokeless powder doesn't magically answer the velocity issue.

Lead bullets won't stand up to velocities higher than about 1800-2000fps even with gas checks and the addition of tin and antimony to harden the alloy. You have to have a jacket of some sort and bullet construction opens up a whole 'nother series of problems, challenges and headaches. With the increase in velocity, aerodynamics of the projectile comes into play, too. Even the slightest variance in bullet shape can have tremendous impact on down range accuracy and performance.

Good thing Charis has a secret crib sheet to cut down the trial and error that really happened, huh?

Your complaint about the .303's rim argues against your own assertion that the BREN (which is a Czech design, by the way- the BR in BREN stands for Brno where it was developed) and the SMLE are so superior.

If the round's rim causes jams, then how is the BREN superior to the BAR as designed by John Moses Browning (blessed be his name)?

I do agree that the SMLE (in the No.1, Mk.III configuration- it used a knife bayonet that's more versatile rather than the Mk.IV's spike) was the best bolt rifle of the World Wars. Semi autos like the Garand and the SVT-40 are a different argument and I'm not fond of apples and oranges comparisons.

The SMLE wasn't quite as robust as the Mosin (but the Mosin was built intentionally to take abuse from poorly trained conscript infantry), as accurate as the 03A3 at distance or build with added goodies like the controlled feed of the '98 but the Lee action was smoother and faster.

Throw in a capacity double any of it's contemporaries AND a box magazine that was, in theory if not in practice, detachable and you have a superior battle rifle. Sights aren't bad, the round has plenty of reach and down range potential and the gun's robust enough to stand up to the rigors of combat.

Handguns are a secondary- if that- weapon in the military. Upgrading to bottom feeders (magazine fed semi autos) can wait. It's not like their .45's (the Charisan gun is even more powerful than the original BP .45 Colt with a 250gr bullet and a 40gr powder charge that was the most powerful handgun cartridge until the .357 Magnum was introduced. It's closer to a .44 MAG than a .45 ACP) won't get the job done.

A Vickers? Really? Why not the 1919- also designed by John Moses Browning (BBHN)?

There were plenty of variants to choose from- including water cooled, bi-pod and buttstock equipped models designed for infantry support or even an aircraft model- like the ones the Spitfires used .

SilverbladeTE wrote:*said ala Wizard of Oz*

Thinking on later novels, I hope we have more infantry battles as the various groups inevitably head to war.
Point:
Black powder weapons work best with larger bores due to it's finicky combustion issues
And older less precise machinery is much better for building larger simpler weapons

So, a .45 revolver made technical and economic sense in the Jihad
It won't though in wars to come, since Charis has smokeless powder and much better manufacturing

It doesn't really take a lot to render a Human Being "hors de combat", so in actual battle you are better of with a 13+ shot 9mm than a 6 or 7 shot .45 because you WILL miss and more shots are better when things get hairy (Seijin Merlins and Nimue are accuracy exceptions! Lol)

Or a rifle bullet between 5mm and 7mm provided it's high velocity

The Lee Enfield rifles the Charisians seem to have ARE the best battle rifle the world has ever known...it's still used today because in extreme conditions it will work when others simply cannot

But the original .303 cartridge the UK used sucked because it was rimmed, caused jamming and problems and was still over powered
Note UK designed the .303 to "tumble" in semi-secrecy so it was devastating on impact (MK VII round)

Owl etc would probably suggest I think, Charis moving to something like a 6.5mm Grendel round, it's far and away the best infantry round, being in the "Goldilocks" zone, and allowing efficient automatic weapons as its rimless (less jams)

Weight, efficiency, actual combat ranges etc are all.issues
For decades people "over gunned" the military, wrongly, and are now going back to what some realized that 6.5mm is best

People would complain more about an enemy who walked away from a wound than notice the many more who didn't!
So Human Nature tended to.push for over powered guns
Bitish had a fantastic .280 rifle but in 1951 idiots in Pentagon forced the 7.62mm round onto NATO...and thus the incredibly far ahead of its.time EM 2 rifle died


The best light machine gun ever is also British
Well ,Czech/British...the fabulous Bren Gun
Now if Charis had 6.5mm Bren guns, which could be lighter due to smaller cartridge and OH would it be nice to shave say 3 or 4 pounds off the weight of machine gun some poor berk has to carry (seriously)
Then Charis' more effective manoeuvre military has portable firepower to complement it
There are many reasons to prefer light machine guns

Maybe have Vickers water cooled at company or battalion level for defence?
Too heavy for manoeuvre, but ideal in defence, on armoured vehicle, especially against massed infantry attacks
Incredibly reliable weapon

A.new bolt.action rifle.in same cartridge, 20 round magazine, cut down stock, lighter, and small combat scope would help troops, let the magazine work in Bren gun....
You have a sweet weapon system!
Or perhaps the EM 2 rifle

Optics greatly improve combat hit rates, however separating nitrogen to fill "fog free" scopes.might be tricky?
A "marksman" version say 1 per platoon for dealing with distant enemies would also be good.idea

A new high spec sniper rifle in larger calibre, hey Owl can reference .338 Lapua or such like

Bayonets are not nearly as good as.giving every squaddie a Browning HiPower or similar
What would you rather have in nasty "furball", a pistol or a knife?

Charis was considering a man-held rocket, so a "dragon killer", an RPG 2 or such clone with shrapnel added, would rock
As would a grenade.launcher...or Sterling submachine gun to replace the 10 gauge shotguns

I do love that RFC likes and uses British weaponry in the series to an extent, so I'm just encouraging it


Ok I know folk.love the ships in the series, so do I, but hey, I'd like the "Tommies" to get some upgrades, too!
Give the old gear to North Harchong etc, folk still use Lee Enfield MK IV and SMLEs in Afghanistan

My 2 cents

I'm not going to put forward an opinion vis-a-vis Mauser versus Lee-Enfield but I will ask a question. If the L-E was such a world beater, why was the UK Army's plan pre-WW1 to switch to a Mauser based rifle? The P-13 was to have a modified Mauser action firing the Enfield .276 round.

Weird Harold wrote:

SilverbladeTE wrote:...
The Lee Enfield rifles the Charisians seem to have ARE the best battle rifle the world has ever known...

I'll take Gen Patton's opinion over yours :

The M1 rifle was named after its Canadian-American designer, John Garand. It was the first standard-issue semi-automatic military rifle. By all accounts the M1 rifle served with distinction. General George S. Patton called it "the greatest battle implement ever devised".

Lol
Oh the Garand is very good...problem is, it sucks when it gets dirty especially when freezing
Also like even the Lee Enfield, it is simply too damn heavy :/
Combat rifle shouldn't weigh more than 7lb unloaded/without items imho

Jtg452
Good post!:) but I disagree largely

The rifle Charis uses has 4660 ft/lbs of power
That is INSANELY over powered, as I noted one thing for Merlin, but for us squishy Humans....that ridiculous except for specific sniper rifles
They aren't hunting Great Dragons

The .45-70 of today's Alaskan hunters is hell of a lot more powerful as they are throwing it out of high strength stainless steel barrels with smokeless powders
The original black powder round while still powerful was still to powerful for a combat rifle
However...

As I implied the manufacturing and technology of firearms changed hugely from 1800 to 1900
There were real practical limits, one of which you noted
It was easier to make a largebore .577 rifle, less fiddly, they didn't have high strength alloys
It was easier for men to load a large bullet than a wee fiddly one when muzzle loading
And as I've read there were issues with black powder and it did burn better in larger calibres
The powder Civil War soldiers had was far worse in quality and standards than might be found in a good 1880+ brass cartridge


Yup, smokeless powders more or less require jacketted rounds (for volume fire anyway)

The BAR *sucked* as light machine gun, sorry but it did
Browning was a superlative inventor, I won't disagree there!
If he'd had more years....I read he wanted to rework the BAR

But in practice compared to a Bren, the BAR is a very poor second, do comparisons
Bren:
Vastly faster to reload
Changeable barrel
Chromed barrel
Extreme accuracy...which lol could be a problem sometimes
Top magazines don't jam anything like as often as bottom loaders (which offset the rim round issue especially as loading short 27 rather than 30 avoided such in the Bren but it was a fussy problem it could have done without)


Yes the Bren would be much better with a rimless round...which it got in 7.62 mm version
Everyone I've known including relatives who used it loved the Bren

I did say it was British/Czech
British came up with tweaks

No the Mark 4 iz superior, bayonets should be a none issue and the 14 inch was useless in a real fight where you need something much shorter
Problem all the Lee Enfields had the wood swelled and in some manufacturers it caused loss of accuracy on zome rifles and not others

Yeah Owl could fix lot of problems!
Now Charis has oil industry...could it have plastics?
Glass reinforced plastic stock would solve temperature and moisture issues?

No idea on manufacturing scopes suitable for combat use with their tech level...as it's different by fair bit than binoculars
Absolutely needs nitrogen filling

The Browning 1917 didn't have the Vickers annoying habit of breaking your thumb I'll give you that
Vickers reliability was incredible though
Thinking more that light and water cooled guns maybe better for combat they will face and manufacturing
Armoured steam truck with water cooled gun = hell of a useful armoured car!


As for military top brass choosing weird or idjit stuff..
Poor Americans got stuck with the Chachaut and in more recent times the British got stuck with that blasted SA80!
Sigh, someone should have gone to jail for the SA 80 debacle


It is a common fallacy to think frontline soldiers don't need pistols
How much is a soldier worth?
Lot of it stemmed from arrogance (only wanting officers to have them, at least in Europe)
Also concerns over training conscripts a fair number of whom WERE too dumb to let have anything more than a rifle, ye gods...the stories....
UK finally realized professional troops are much better with pistols, and if they wish a personal choice of melee weapon/tool, only took us a THIRD Afghan war to admit it
lol
Pistol works SO much better up close, indoors etc than a bayonet, bayonet on end of rifle or rifle
Melee weapon is useful back up but pistol is far superior


Oh and not getting at American weapons, honestly!
M1911 is the most beautiful pistol imho
And the Remington Rollingblock could have changed the course of the Civil War
Etc etc

jtg452 wrote:BP guns tended to use larger bores because of a lack of velocity.

Historic Buffalo gun rounds that are even more 'powerful' than the issue Charisan round (it's close to the .45-70 Government) barely broke the sound barrier at the muzzle but they were accurate at over 1000 yards (the first Creedmoor 1000 yard match was held in 1874) and were used to make the largest land animal on North America basically extinct in less than a decade.

Remember mass times velocity squared?
***********SNIP**************

*Mild Spoiler for TFT*

The original BP version of the standard issue Charisian rifle round might have been comparable to the .45-70 Government. But the current smokeless powder round is far more powerful.

In fact, I'd say it is insanely overpowerful for a battle rifle round. There is a scene in TFT where the ballistics of the current M897 are given: 350 grain bullet moving at over 2400 fps with a total energy of 4,665 ft-lbs. That is pretty much African big game rifle territory. In fact, in total energy terms these numbers exceed some loadings of the .375 H&H magnum and .416 Remington Magnum. And it is coming close to the .458 Winchester Magnum.

Henry Brown wrote:

jtg452 wrote:BP guns tended to use larger bores because of a lack of velocity.

Historic Buffalo gun rounds that are even more 'powerful' than the issue Charisan round (it's close to the .45-70 Government) barely broke the sound barrier at the muzzle but they were accurate at over 1000 yards (the first Creedmoor 1000 yard match was held in 1874) and were used to make the largest land animal on North America basically extinct in less than a decade.

Remember mass times velocity squared?
***********SNIP**************

*Mild Spoiler for TFT*

The original BP version of the standard issue Charisian rifle round might have been comparable to the .45-70 Government. But the current smokeless powder round is far more powerful.

In fact, I'd say it is insanely overpowerful for a battle rifle round. There is a scene in TFT where the ballistics of the current M897 are given: 350 grain bullet moving at over 2400 fps with a total energy of 4,665 ft-lbs. That is pretty much African big game rifle territory. In fact, in total energy terms these numbers exceed some loadings of the .375 H&H magnum and .416 Remington Magnum. And it is coming close to the .458 Winchester Magnum.

Yeah the recoil from that in a combat situation would be ridiculous
Maybe ok as sniper weapon, or because they were hunting large game...or for seijins


~~~~~~~~~~~~

On the general topic:

Small bullet high velocity creates less *perceived* recoil than same energy in large bullet slower velocity
Perceived as well as actual recoil is big issue with fast firing

Personally if Royal Guard are on protection duties expecting large game you'd be better off with the 10 gauge pump action shotguns but loaded with bronze solid slugs

A .40-70 round would probably be a better black powder cartridge than 45-70, flatter trajectory
But as suggested, manufacturing limits were also a.real problem in the 1800s, so .45-70 may well have been the most efficient cartridge they could produce?




Ok I put this post in spoilers tag so I can note that in Through Fiery Trials, for hunting dangerous game, they carry a .625 round and rifle that has all the same stats as a .600 Nitro express, which is a actually a reasonable thing to carry considering how appallingly dangerous Safehold's critters can get
But those aren't rifles most folk can use, takes either big person or training to cope with those
Still rather have rapid fire shotgun though as said 10 guage bronze slugs, in tight country be better than a double rifle I think

SilverbladeTE wrote:****SNIP****

Ok I put this post in spoilers tag so I can note that in Through Fiery Trials, for hunting dangerous game, they carry a .625 round and rifle that has all the same stats as a .600 Nitro express, which is a actually a reasonable thing to carry considering how appallingly dangerous Safehold's critters can get
But those aren't rifles most folk can use, takes either big person or training to cope with those
Still rather have rapid fire shotgun though as said 10 guage bronze slugs, in tight country be better than a double rifle I think

If I remember right, it mentions that the rifle is over 15 pounds to help absorb some the the recoil. And Stefyny is still afraid that it will break her collar bone if she fires it from the prone position.

Henry Brown wrote:

SilverbladeTE wrote:****SNIP****

Ok I put this post in spoilers tag so I can note that in Through Fiery Trials, for hunting dangerous game, they carry a .625 round and rifle that has all the same stats as a .600 Nitro express, which is a actually a reasonable thing to carry considering how appallingly dangerous Safehold's critters can get
But those aren't rifles most folk can use, takes either big person or training to cope with those
Still rather have rapid fire shotgun though as said 10 guage bronze slugs, in tight country be better than a double rifle I think

If I remember right, it mentions that the rifle is over 15 pounds to help absorb some the the recoil. And Stefyny is still afraid that it will break her collar bone if she fires it from the prone position.

Yup! Hence I'd rather rapid fire shotgun, much easier to handle
Damage and penetration from bronze, pointed slugs from a 10 gauge would be catastrophic