(SPOILERS)Duchairn and Phandys

I've been thinking about the relationship between the two. I think most of us figured out that Phandys had been doublecrossing the inquisition all along. But were Duchairn and Phandys mutually aware of what was going on between them? Was Phandys on the list Hauwerd Wylsyn handed him tipping off Duchairn to Phandys involvement with the potential coup? Or... Was Phandys aware of the list in Duchairn's posession? Were they mutually doing the theater they acted out for the inquisition?

Another question...Was Duchairn's involvement with his charity work a deliberate part of a scheme to build up his power base countering the inquisition or was the actions of Zion's mob simply a normal consequence of Duchairn becoming beloved by Zion's populace because of his charity work?

Don

-

From reading the new book, it's clear that Duchairn & Phandys were working together.

The list Hauwerd gave Duchairn included Phandys.

As for Duchairn's charity work, I believe Duchairn started it because of his rebirth of faith.

IE It was something that Duchairn believe God wanted him to do.

On the other hand, he was aware that his role as the "Good Shepherd" was useful when it came time for action.

n7axw wrote:I've been thinking about the relationship between the two. I think most of us figured out that Phandys had been doublecrossing the inquisition all along. But were Duchairn and Phandys mutually aware of what was going on between them? Was Phandys on the list Hauwerd Wylsyn handed him tipping off Duchairn to Phandys involvement with the potential coup? Or... Was Phandys aware of the list in Duchairn's posession? Were they mutually doing the theater they acted out for the inquisition?

Another question...Was Duchairn's involvement with his charity work a deliberate part of a scheme to build up his power base countering the inquisition or was the actions of Zion's mob simply a normal consequence of Duchairn becoming beloved by Zion's populace because of his charity work?

Don

-

I just finished the second reading... well almost (at 10:30 PM EST I was distracted by a name Gwyliwir Hwylio and came to check the list of Welsh names < it seems to have come un-stuck> then I saw this new discussion...
As I read it, Duchairn definatly knew that Phandys was on the list but I don't think he told him that he had the list... check the conversation in Lincoln Fultons office after the incident at the Inquisitions Prison.
At the same time, Phandys was asked to keep an eye on Duchairn by Howard Wilson but I don't think he had told Duchairn that till just before he went out to find a bottle of whiskey.

I don't think that the charity work was begun to build a power base as much as an act of penance after the holy war was started.
I planed to reread the arrest scene in the second book tomorrow and may wind up rereading the entire book because of your second question... I think he made his decision in that book.

n7axw wrote:I've been thinking about the relationship between the two. I think most of us figured out that Phandys had been doublecrossing the inquisition all along. But were Duchairn and Phandys mutually aware of what was going on between them? Was Phandys on the list Hauwerd Wylsyn handed him tipping off Duchairn to Phandys involvement with the potential coup? Or... Was Phandys aware of the list in Duchairn's posession? Were they mutually doing the theater they acted out for the inquisition?

Another question...Was Duchairn's involvement with his charity work a deliberate part of a scheme to build up his power base countering the inquisition or was the actions of Zion's mob simply a normal consequence of Duchairn becoming beloved by Zion's populace because of his charity work?

Don

-

Drak... I did not see that first point as "clearly" as you did. Even after reading a second time, though I did have the impression that Phandys was impressed by Duchairn, I also recalled him reporting to Rayno and thought nothing more of it... till it punched me in the nose

DrakBibliophile wrote:From reading the new book, it's clear that Duchairn & Phandys were working together.

The list Hauwerd gave Duchairn included Phandys.

As for Duchairn's charity work, I believe Duchairn started it because of his rebirth of faith.

IE It was something that Duchairn believe God wanted him to do.

On the other hand, he was aware that his role as the "Good Shepherd" was useful when it came time for action.

n7axw wrote:I've been thinking about the relationship between the two. I think most of us figured out that Phandys had been doublecrossing the inquisition all along. But were Duchairn and Phandys mutually aware of what was going on between them? Was Phandys on the list Hauwerd Wylsyn handed him tipping off Duchairn to Phandys involvement with the potential coup? Or... Was Phandys aware of the list in Duchairn's posession? Were they mutually doing the theater they acted out for the inquisition?

Another question...Was Duchairn's involvement with his charity work a deliberate part of a scheme to build up his power base countering the inquisition or was the actions of Zion's mob simply a normal consequence of Duchairn becoming beloved by Zion's populace because of his charity work?

Don

-

n7axw wrote:I've been thinking about the relationship between the two. I think most of us figured out that Phandys had been doublecrossing the inquisition all along.

Don

-

Err .. not me. I still think the hints in the books were very thin and could easily be interpreted in other ways, which is a tribute to RFC's artistry. It was only on the forum that certain people 'sold' the idea so thoroughly that it came to be regarded as very likely by many.

Drak, clearly Duchairn and Phandys are working together in AtST, I don't think it is at all clear in any of the other books.

As to motivation, I agree that Duchairn helped the poor because he came to see it was right, but he was smart enough that he was not oblivious to the political consequences in the way that Clyntahn was. It's the lesson about the power of integrity and mercy again.

DrakBibliophile wrote:From reading the new book, it's clear that Duchairn & Phandys were working together.

The list Hauwerd gave Duchairn included Phandys.

As for Duchairn's charity work, I believe Duchairn started it because of his rebirth of faith.

IE It was something that Duchairn believe God wanted him to do.

On the other hand, he was aware that his role as the "Good Shepherd" was useful when it came time for action.

Yes, the charity work was what God wanted him to do. I would add that from the beginning that work was also used to provide the citizens of Zion that the Church, if only in Duchairn, truly cared for them. His activities underscored from the beginning that the excesses of the Inquisition was all Clyntahn. Effectively, Duchairn's gesture resonated with the Church of Charis' claim that fallible men and coopted the Church. Truly selling that message required is going out to visit the projects. Going out meant he needed his bodyguards.

The entire scheme went together hand in glove. So while he was going fight for those Charities anyway, those charities were always considered in his mind as the means to hide his activities. God wanted him to work those charities for many good reasons.

One thing that always struck me about Duchairn and Phandys in the earlier books was that Duchairn never showed in his thoughts any real concern about Phandys being Rayno's spy.

For that matter, it would have been reasonable for Duchairn to suspect Phandys to be Rayno's spy but Duchairn was too sure about Phandys spying on him.

The only reason IMO that Duchairn would so sure is if Phandys had told him.

We learn in this book that Phandys was on the list that Hauwerd gave Duchairn which explains much of that attitude on his part.

IMO it makes no sense for Duchairn to not talk with Phandys about Hauwerd's list after Phandys became his chief bodyguard.

Randomiser wrote:Err .. not me. I still think the hints in the books were very thin and could easily be interpreted in other ways, which is a tribute to RFC's artistry. It was only on the forum that certain people 'sold' the idea so thoroughly that it came to be regarded as very likely by many.

Drak, clearly Duchairn and Phandys are working together in AtST, I don't think it is at all clear in any of the other books.

As to motivation, I agree that Duchairn helped the poor because he came to see it was right, but he was smart enough that he was not oblivious to the political consequences in the way that Clyntahn was. It's the lesson about the power of integrity and mercy again.

I think that what many here have forgotten is that Safehold still has a medieval mindset where politics, faith and court intrigue are concerned. The sort of deep, almost byzantine plots that are regularly described in both history and fiction are still common. We must also add the fact that the entire Wylsynn Family had access to an actual "prophecy" and the direct word of Schueler. One could therefore conclude that having realized their pending demise, Hauwerd Wylsynn would take steps to ensure that his death was not only quick (and thus eliminate the possibility of revealing any sort of information under torture) but that it also served his purpose.

There are some parallels between Hauwerd Wylsynn's death at Phandys' hands and Dumbledore's death at Snape's hands in the Harry Potter series. In both cases, the hero knows he's dying and calls upon a trusted servant to give him a quick end, under circumstances that would make his loyalty to the enemy seem unimpeachable. And in both cases, these conspiracies were years and decades in the making, exploiting a glaring blind spot in the enemy's vision - Their inability to envision any motivations for loyalty beyond those they understand (a common trait among dictators). The byzantine nature of the conspiracy is only to be expected in such an environment.

n7axw wrote:I've been thinking about the relationship between the two. I think most of us figured out that Phandys had been doublecrossing the inquisition all along. But were Duchairn and Phandys mutually aware of what was going on between them? Was Phandys on the list Hauwerd Wylsyn handed him tipping off Duchairn to Phandys involvement with the potential coup? Or... Was Phandys aware of the list in Duchairn's posession? Were they mutually doing the theater they acted out for the inquisition?

Another question...Was Duchairn's involvement with his charity work a deliberate part of a scheme to build up his power base countering the inquisition or was the actions of Zion's mob simply a normal consequence of Duchairn becoming beloved by Zion's populace because of his charity work?

Second point first: Duchairn's charity work was an outcome of a regeneration of his faith. Recall that when Clyntahn purged the Vicarate and sent a tenth of them to the Punishment, he spent time on his knees in his private Chapel begging God to show him what he was supposed to do to counter the atrocity. He read the Writ again, and got a pointed reminder.

When Irys Daikyn had her epiphany aboard Destiny on the way to Chisholm, she sought out Archbishop Michael to ask his counsel, and asked "Are you a priest, your Eminence?" "Before I am anything else in this world", Staynair replied.

That was Duchairn. He was reminded he was first of all a priest, that the Writ laid explicit charges on priests about what their duties were and what was expected of them, and he and the rest of the Vicarate had been failing those charges.

When he began his charity efforts in Zion, he was only doing what he realized he should have been doing all along, but he'd allowed himself to be distracted by his luxurious life as a senior Vicar, his responsibilities as Mother Church's Treasurer, and his power as a member of the Group of Four who actually determined Mother Church's policies and decreed her actions.

He was smart enough to understand the popular support his actions would garner, but he would have done it anyway, and his popular support was meaningless as long as the Inquisition held Zion in a tight grip.

The question is timing. Vicar Hauwerd recruited Major Phandys as one of his supporters in a planned future military coup to overthrow the Inquisition. But they weren't ready when Clyntahn moved against those he saw as opponents. So he gave the list of other recruits to Phandys as his last act before Clyntahn moved against him, trusting Phandys to find someone if they existed who might take up the reins.

Phandys' posting by Rayno as commander of Duchairn's guards gave him the time and vantage point to see Duchairn as the best person to pick up the torch, and he gave him the list and explained what his true loyalties were.

It's obvious that Duchairn conferred with Magwair, who was still officially the Temple Guard CO, and handed him the list when he concluded it was time to move against the Inquisition. We don't know exactly when Phandys fessed up to Duchairn, and we don't know exactly when Duchairn laid his cards on the table with Magwair. They had been growing steadily closer simply due to efforts to limit the damage Clyntahn was causing, but Duchairn still had to have a vestige of "Allayn isn't as stupid as I once assumed he was, and we're in broad agreement about Clyntahn and the issues facing Mother Church, but how will he react when I lay this in him? I don't expect him to denounce me to Clyntahn, but is he up to doing what this requires?"

Obviously, he was. And timing was a factor there, too. A lot of the more senior members of the Guard who might have supported to Clyntahn had already been seconded to the Army of God and become things like advisors and Bishop Militants. They were no longer in Zion, and command had been passed along to younger officers like the commander of the local AOG training camp who played a part in the coup when it happened. Those folks knew what subordinates would be loyal to them and follow them against the Inquisition. Magwair was given a list of troops in and local to Zion he could call upon when time came to move against Clyntahn. (And we get the impression that many of those troops attitude towards the agents inquisitors in Zion was "I really, really want to break your face! Give me an excuse by even looking funny at me!" Agents inquistor with two functioning brain cells were careful not to... )
______
Dennis

Big Nit.

Hauwerd gave the list to Duchairn not Phandys (although Phandys may have known who was on the list).

DMcCunney wrote:

n7axw wrote:I've been thinking about the relationship between the two. I think most of us figured out that Phandys had been doublecrossing the inquisition all along. But were Duchairn and Phandys mutually aware of what was going on between them? Was Phandys on the list Hauwerd Wylsyn handed him tipping off Duchairn to Phandys involvement with the potential coup? Or... Was Phandys aware of the list in Duchairn's posession? Were they mutually doing the theater they acted out for the inquisition?

Another question...Was Duchairn's involvement with his charity work a deliberate part of a scheme to build up his power base countering the inquisition or was the actions of Zion's mob simply a normal consequence of Duchairn becoming beloved by Zion's populace because of his charity work?

Second point first: Duchairn's charity work was an outcome of a regeneration of his faith. Recall that when Clyntahn purged the Vicarate and sent a tenth of them to the Punishment, he spent time on his knees in his private Chapel begging God to show him what he was supposed to do to counter the atrocity. He read the Writ again, and got a pointed reminder.

When Irys Daikyn had her epiphany aboard Destiny on the way to Chisholm, she sought out Archbishop Michael to ask his counsel, and asked "Are you a priest, your Eminence?" "Before I am anything else in this world", Staynair replied.

That was Duchairn. He was reminded he was first of all a priest, that the Writ laid explicit charges on priests about what their duties were and what was expected of them, and he and the rest of the Vicarate had been failing those charges.

When he began his charity efforts in Zion, he was only doing what he realized he should have been doing all along, but he'd allowed himself to be distracted by his luxurious life as a senior Vicar, his responsibilities as Mother Church's Treasurer, and his power as a member of the Group of Four who actually determined Mother Church's policies and decreed her actions.

He was smart enough to understand the popular support his actions would garner, but he would have done it anyway, and his popular support was meaningless as long as the Inquisition held Zion in a tight grip.

The question is timing. Vicar Hauwerd recruited Major Phandys as one of his supporters in a planned future military coup to overthrow the Inquisition. But they weren't ready when Clyntahn moved against those he saw as opponents. So he gave the list of other recruits to Phandys as his last act before Clyntahn moved against him, trusting Phandys to find someone if they existed who might take up the reins.

Phandys' posting by Rayno as commander of Duchairn's guards gave him the time and vantage point to see Duchairn as the best person to pick up the torch, and he gave him the list and explained what his true loyalties were.

It's obvious that Duchairn conferred with Magwair, who was still officially the Temple Guard CO, and handed him the list when he concluded it was time to move against the Inquisition. We don't know exactly when Phandys fessed up to Duchairn, and we don't know exactly when Duchairn laid his cards on the table with Magwair. They had been growing steadily closer simply due to efforts to limit the damage Clyntahn was causing, but Duchairn still had to have a vestige of "Allayn isn't as stupid as I once assumed he was, and we're in broad agreement about Clyntahn and the issues facing Mother Church, but how will he react when I lay this in him? I don't expect him to denounce me to Clyntahn, but is he up to doing what this requires?"

Obviously, he was. And timing was a factor there, too. A lot of the more senior members of the Guard who might have supported to Clyntahn had already been seconded to the Army of God and become things like advisors and Bishop Militants. They were no longer in Zion, and command had been passed along to younger officers like the commander of the local AOG training camp who played a part in the coup when it happened. Those folks knew what subordinates would be loyal to them and follow them against the Inquisition. Magwair was given a list of troops in and local to Zion he could call upon when time came to move against Clyntahn. (And we get the impression that many of those troops attitude towards the agents inquisitors in Zion was "I really, really want to break your face! Give me an excuse by even looking funny at me!" Agents inquistor with two functioning brain cells were careful not to... )
______
Dennis