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Aging Inner Circle

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Aging Inner Circle
Post by C. O. Thompson   » Sat Oct 22, 2016 11:35 am

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In OAR when Nimue woke up and conducted the inventory of the cave, she was surprised by the medical facilities but said she did not trust the anti-aging chemistry... When Norman's virtual personality woke up, he was informed that the system burned out part of his brain because it was not intended to be used with people that had no neural interface...
Since then, Norman and OWL have designed the system that allowed Olivia to join him... and he has had time to consider some of the other limitations they face.

I think it is about time that they make a fresh batch of anti-aging chemicals and/or devise some way to download a few of the key people>

What do you think?
Just my 2 ₡ worth
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Re: Aging Inner Circle
Post by Charybdis   » Sat Oct 22, 2016 11:58 am

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C. O. Thompson wrote:In OAR when Nimue woke up and conducted the inventory of the cave, she was surprised by the medical facilities but said she did not trust the anti-aging chemistry... When Norman's virtual personality woke up, he was informed that the system burned out part of his brain because it was not intended to be used with people that had no neural interface...
Since then, Norman and OWL have designed the system that allowed Olivia to join him... and he has had time to consider some of the other limitations they face.

I think it is about time that they make a fresh batch of anti-aging chemicals and/or devise some way to download a few of the key people>

What do you think?

I don't think that RFC wants 'life extension' in the series for non-PICAs. When Merlin has deployed nanobots to his allies, the emphasis has been that they would enhance health and wound healing but not extend life beyond that. The rationale has been that obvious life extension would add credibility to 'Demon Shan-wei' influence.

As for Ohlyvya joining Nahrmahn in the VR world, recall that Merlin has given her a very special VR 'skin' to wear when she does join him and that is on a temporary basis. I also recall that there is textev for a limit to the number of 'personalities' that can reside in a given VR.
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Re: Aging Inner Circle
Post by Silverwall   » Sat Oct 22, 2016 4:16 pm

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It is worth noting that both the nannites used by Merlin to protect from disease and the anti aging meds are left over tech from the Terran Federation. Nowhere does it indicate that Owl has the ability to synthesise more of either. Now the nannites were deemed safe to use but the anti aging drugs had degraded hence why they were not used.

Honestly I see both as well beyond the manufacturing capability of Owls little toy shop and I am sure that Langhorne et al would have conidered anti aging tech as more important to track than the odd manufacturing unit or case of assault rifles. This is real game changing tech. Just look at how little of the library computer they were able to save (just the data core not the whole integrated unit).
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Re: Aging Inner Circle
Post by Randomiser   » Sat Oct 22, 2016 4:57 pm

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Silverwall wrote:It is worth noting that both the nannites used by Merlin to protect from disease and the anti aging meds are left over tech from the Terran Federation. Nowhere does it indicate that Owl has the ability to synthesise more of either. Now the nannites were deemed safe to use but the anti aging drugs had degraded hence why they were not used.

Honestly I see both as well beyond the manufacturing capability of Owls little toy shop and I am sure that Langhorne et al would have conidered anti aging tech as more important to track than the odd manufacturing unit or case of assault rifles. This is real game changing tech. Just look at how little of the library computer they were able to save (just the data core not the whole integrated unit).


The impression I have is that OWL can manufacture pretty much anything he has plans and materials for. I cannot think of anything he has been unable to make if he has the materials, nor any time someone has proposed fabricating something to be told it is beyond OWL's inherent capacity. (OK, no one has ever asked him to build something on the scale of a spaceship, say.)

On medical nannites, OWL is at least tailoring them to each individual and needs a DNA sample to do so. Moreover, Merlin has never expressed any concern about running out of them or being unable to supply them to any new members of the Circle. I can't remember if OWL is actually said to fabricate medical nannites anywhere (c2M words and counting!) but textev is highly suggestive that he is doing so.

Langhorne clearly wasn't that good at tracking 'the odd manufacturing unit' as his loyalists nearly lost the War of the Fallen because the opposition had hidden a number of them and so were able to Fab war machines.
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Re: Aging Inner Circle
Post by C. O. Thompson   » Sun Oct 23, 2016 11:52 am

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Charybdis wrote:
C. O. Thompson wrote:In OAR when Nimue woke up and conducted the inventory of the cave, she was surprised by the medical facilities but said she did not trust the anti-aging chemistry... When Norman's virtual personality woke up, he was informed that the system burned out part of his brain because it was not intended to be used with people that had no neural interface...
Since then, Norman and OWL have designed the system that allowed Olivia to join him... and he has had time to consider some of the other limitations they face.

I think it is about time that they make a fresh batch of anti-aging chemicals and/or devise some way to download a few of the key people>

What do you think?

I don't think that RFC wants 'life extension' in the series for non-PICAs. When Merlin has deployed nanobots to his allies, the emphasis has been that they would enhance health and wound healing but not extend life beyond that. The rationale has been that obvious life extension would add credibility to 'Demon Shan-wei' influence.

As for Ohlyvya joining Nahrmahn in the VR world, recall that Merlin has given her a very special VR 'skin' to wear when she does join him and that is on a temporary basis. I also recall that there is textev for a limit to the number of 'personalities' that can reside in a given VR.


Last point first... Merlin had Owl build the VR as well as the tech that he used to 'capture' Nahrmahn's mind from his death bed. Nahrmahn and Owl worked out the design for the skin suit. I have come to the conclusion that Nimue is as narrowly focused as OWL in a lot of ways.
Remember the conversation when Merlin told Ohlyvya that Nimue never fell in love or when Merlin realized the concept of POW's was not part of the world he came from.

I am re-reading the series to check my memory before the new book gets here and realized that Arch Bishop Michael told Iyrs he was three times her age (so OK, that only puts him in his sixties) Father Zahn from the Brotherhood recently died and the dean of the Royal college has to be getting up in age.

If Nahrmahn and OWL can design the skin suit they ought to be able to come up with something that will permit "downloading" the key players in additional VR units.

The other point about how Merlin used the nano-tech was made when he had not made any friends yet and he started to take drastic action based on the pain that he feels when he looses friends... if, OWL can make a PICA, it has to have the ability to make fresh nano.

But, hey... I've been wrong before
Last edited by C. O. Thompson on Sun Oct 23, 2016 12:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Just my 2 ₡ worth
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Re: Aging Inner Circle
Post by C. O. Thompson   » Sun Oct 23, 2016 12:01 pm

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Silverwall wrote:It is worth noting that both the nannites used by Merlin to protect from disease and the anti aging meds are left over tech from the Terran Federation. Nowhere does it indicate that Owl has the ability to synthesise more of either. Now the nannites were deemed safe to use but the anti aging drugs had degraded hence why they were not used.

Honestly I see both as well beyond the manufacturing capability of Owls little toy shop and I am sure that Langhorne et al would have conidered anti aging tech as more important to track than the odd manufacturing unit or case of assault rifles. This is real game changing tech. Just look at how little of the library computer they were able to save (just the data core not the whole integrated unit).


I don't think this rebuttal holds water Silverwall... recall in OAR that the decision to hide Nimue's PICA included that the tech needed to build one was equal to the the tech needed to build a star ship. Do you think that Shan-Wi would provide an assault shuttle, a star ship data base (equal to a Federation University library) and the other "toys" without making sure that the fabricator could make the tools that make the tools to do the job.
Before Jasper Clinton could find out that Cayleb and Sharlyan were not aging, the Temple has to win the war first.
Just my 2 ₡ worth
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Re: Aging Inner Circle
Post by Bluestrike2   » Sun Oct 23, 2016 2:33 pm

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Silverwall wrote:It is worth noting that both the nannites used by Merlin to protect from disease and the anti aging meds are left over tech from the Terran Federation. Nowhere does it indicate that Owl has the ability to synthesise more of either. Now the nannites were deemed safe to use but the anti aging drugs had degraded hence why they were not used.

Honestly I see both as well beyond the manufacturing capability of Owls little toy shop and I am sure that Langhorne et al would have conidered anti aging tech as more important to track than the odd manufacturing unit or case of assault rifles. This is real game changing tech. Just look at how little of the library computer they were able to save (just the data core not the whole integrated unit).


Another long post, sorry in advance :).

All textev to date suggests that Owl's fabrication capabilities are based on a form of molecular assembly utilizing molecular machines, or "nanites" that serve to "guide chemical reactions by positioning reactive molecules with atomic precision." There's no other conceivable way to explain the sheer degree of flexibility in what Owl can fabricate. Even some sort of advanced 3D printer would be insufficient for what we've already seen.

Any sort of non-molecular assembly would require an assortment of industrial processes that would require significant room, external resources, and generate significant waste heat that could be detected by orbital sensors. Steel alone, to say nothing of the advanced composite materials that get referenced (battle steel, concrete substitute, the transparent materials used for windows, etc. - can’t recall some of their given names), would require significant production resources even if it’s a more advanced, and miniaturized version, of current industrial methods. HFQ also informs us that multiple, smaller fabrication units were hidden and used during the War of the Fallen when the Temple forces controlled orbital surveillance systems. For that to be possible, it suggests that the units were self-contained and didn’t give off significant waste heat, chemical waste, or other giveaways that would pinpoint their location like a flare in the night.

We know that Owl fabricates molecular scale electronics (what Weber refers to as "molycirc"), as evident by the fabrication of countless additional SNARC bugs and remotes, Nahrmahn's VR system, Ohlyvya's VR suit, the Inner Circle's contact lenses and comms, and other devices. Textev discussing the importance of miniaturized computing power (directly and indirectly, such as when they talk about the library's computer core size) all suggest that we're talking about single-molecule electronics here. None of these items were present in Nimue’s Cave to begin with.

Just look at the contact lenses: they're highly capable, betray no visible evidence of their existence when worn, and are likely powered by the user's body (mechanism unknown). Researchers today are working on smart contact lenses, but it's unlikely in the extreme that we could achieve the functionality discussed with bulk electronics and existing production methods without there being some sort of visible evidence, such as the presence of very fine wires that could be seen overlaying the user's eyes. Medical nanites also serve as pretty clear evidence of molecular assembly capabilities as evident by their ability to repair the body's tissues. Finally, Merlin noted at one point that with sufficient time, material resources, and power, that his PICA chasis could rebuild itself after taking significant damage.

Given the ability to manipulate chemical reactions on an atomic scale in all of these instances, there’s no reason to think that Owl wouldn’t be able to build additional nanites as well. Molecules are molecules, and I doubt that nanites would involve artificial elements or other aspects that would create all sorts of problems like needing a particle accelerator or something. Not to mention that something like that would be a massive bottleneck, undermining the efficiency of the TF’s clearly significant industrial capabilities.

Now, as a matter of principle, I think writers tend to fall back on “nanites” as a miracle panacea for plot problems: they can do anything, go anywhere, and accomplish miracles. They can fly, self-assemble into sentient hive minds, and turn into ravaging grey goo that eats planets and sets off into space to destroy and unlucky starship that comes too close. People think about Star Trek’s matter/energy conversion and imagine a beautiful post-money/utopian society.

In reality, they’re tiny machines. They require an external power source (whether that’s some sort of external beamed power, a biological fuel source like ATP, or something similar). Their size makes effective shielding effectively impossible (otherwise they’d be too big to do their job), so even tiny EMPs or just normal background radiation would kill them off in bulk. And, individually, they’re dumb as rocks so you need some sort of controller. Possibly just larger control units that, while still tiny, are large enough to direct their smaller workers. In which case, any time you fabricate something, you’re going to kill off lots of nanites as an inevitable cost of doing business.

As for Owl’s fabrication unit, I’d bet that it’s not the most efficient tool in the Federation’s tool chest. Larger units would probably be able to produce more material far more efficiently, and probably faster as well by doing multiple tasks in parallel.

That said, I don’t think there’s a technical reason for why Owl can’t create new drugs. He did just that in HFQ so that they could sneak the one family out of the Inquisition’s camp. If you can produce one drug, chances are, you can produce the other. But there’s no real plot benefit to giving them to the Inner Circle at this point in time. Slowing down their visual aging would only reinforce the Temple’s demon-worshipping accusations. So why bother right now when there’s no immediate benefit? Anti-aging changes won’t make them stronger, or increase their nanite’s ability to repair trauma. They can always do so in the future, or just create virtual personalities if need be.

Finally, as for tracking materials, Langhorne had complete computer support. He was able to track *everything*, and Shan-wei was limited in what she could steal without setting off alarms. Ripping out the AI of a ship, for instance, would be immediately noticeable on their networks before it was sent off into the sun. If tactical computers were purposely kept “dumb” and AIs become more developed with additional interactions, then it stands to reason that Owl wouldn’t be missed on the network. And from a security standpoint, you probably wouldn’t want your tactical systems to be networked and communicating with outside systems. But if a fabrication unit can produce more or less anything if it has the resources and plans, it’d be pretty damn important to not overlook.

More than likely, Shan-wei built a computer to mimic any status updates for the unit, snuck it off ship, and sent the ship into the sun as fast as possible. At that point, all that would be left would be electronic records that said “everything accounted for.”

Anyhow, nanites and fabrication tech are probably some of the more interesting aspects of the TF. They might not have turned everything into Star Trek’s Federation, but they would have radically altered human society.
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Re: Aging Inner Circle
Post by Weird Harold   » Sun Oct 23, 2016 2:43 pm

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C. O. Thompson wrote:Before Jasper Clinton could find out that Cayleb and Sharlyan were not aging, the Temple has to win the war first.


Clyntahn is not the concern with never-aging Charisian Monarchs, other rulers and the man-on-the-street are.
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Re: Aging Inner Circle
Post by n7axw   » Sun Oct 23, 2016 5:05 pm

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Charybdis wrote:
C. O. Thompson wrote:In OAR when Nimue woke up and conducted the inventory of the cave, she was surprised by the medical facilities but said she did not trust the anti-aging chemistry... When Norman's virtual personality woke up, he was informed that the system burned out part of his brain because it was not intended to be used with people that had no neural interface...
Since then, Norman and OWL have designed the system that allowed Olivia to join him... and he has had time to consider some of the other limitations they face.

I think it is about time that they make a fresh batch of anti-aging chemicals and/or devise some way to download a few of the key people>

What do you think?

I don't think that RFC wants 'life extension' in the series for non-PICAs. When Merlin has deployed nanobots to his allies, the emphasis has been that they would enhance health and wound healing but not extend life beyond that. The rationale has been that obvious life extension would add credibility to 'Demon Shan-wei' influence.

As for Ohlyvya joining Nahrmahn in the VR world, recall that Merlin has given her a very special VR 'skin' to wear when she does join him and that is on a temporary basis. I also recall that there is textev for a limit to the number of 'personalities' that can reside in a given VR.


There are limits in all things. The limits to the VR in Nimue's cave are more severe than the limits of the much bigger VRs the TF employed doing research during its final days as it sought to fend off the Gbaba. But I would imagine that those bigger VRs also had limits to the number of personalities it could maintain.

Probably, should there be reason to do so, Owl could build a bigger VR.

Don

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When any group seeks political power in God's name, both religion and politics are instantly corrupted.
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Re: Aging Inner Circle
Post by USMA74   » Mon Oct 24, 2016 9:38 am

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Owl can manufacture the drugs for life extension if Merlin wants him to. Think about the suspended animation drugs that he had Owl make when he rescued the girl, her brother and father from the internment camp in HFQ.
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