When the Reveal happens...

What parts of the Writ do you think will fall out of favor first? Charis has rejected the Book of Schueler. But what other parts will go?

Personally, I would like to see a mass rejection of the concept of hell, but I think it is too embedded in Safehold culture to disappear without a fight. I wonder if the idea of heaven will fall out of favor too? I think that one would be harder for people to reject.

Tararoys wrote:What parts of the Writ do you think will fall out of favor first? Charis has rejected the Book of Schueler. But what other parts will go?

Personally, I would like to see a mass rejection of the concept of hell, but I think it is too embedded in Safehold culture to disappear without a fight. I wonder if the idea of heaven will fall out of favor too? I think that one would be harder for people to reject.

The Proscriptions. That's really the whole reason for a "Big Reveal" in the first place. If Merlin could do away with the Proscriptions without a "Big Reveal" he'd do that instead.

Weird Harold wrote:
The Proscriptions. That's really the whole reason for a "Big Reveal" in the first place. If Merlin could do away with the Proscriptions without a "Big Reveal" he'd do that instead.

Up to a point I agree with you. But even if it had to wait for humanity to get back into space, the Great Reveal would have to happen. The core arguement between Langhorne and Shan-wei was over whether or not technological primativism could be sustained or if humanity, ultimately destined to return to space, should be forwarned and prepared to deal with the Gbaba rather than risk stumbling across them unprepared.

So the only serious question about the Great reveal is when it should happen, not if. Another subject complicating the discussion is the mellennial return of the archangels. Should the Great Reveal happen before or after that?

Interesting times ahead...

Don

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n7axw wrote:Up to a point I agree with you. But even if it had to wait for humanity to get back into space, the Great Reveal would have to happen.

Not really. It doesn't have to be a "great" reveal, it can be a limited reveal to those who wish to go to space or just a trickle of information. As long as the Proscriptions are overturned, preparations for the Gbaba can proceed without those reaching for Space fearing Inquisition bonfires.

n7axw wrote:Another subject complicating the discussion is the millennial return of the archangels. Should the Great Reveal happen before or after that?

Why not during? Confronting the Returned Archangels with their Big Lie could be the best way of getting the man-on-the-street to accept mankind's true history.

Think of the Reformation as the match lighting the Reveal!!

Dan Jones

Weird Harold wrote:

n7axw wrote:Up to a point I agree with you. But even if it had to wait for humanity to get back into space, the Great Reveal would have to happen.

Not really. It doesn't have to be a "great" reveal, it can be a limited reveal to those who wish to go to space or just a trickle of information. As long as the Proscriptions are overturned, preparations for the Gbaba can proceed without those reaching for Space fearing Inquisition bonfires.

n7axw wrote:Another subject complicating the discussion is the millennial return of the archangels. Should the Great Reveal happen before or after that?

Why not during? Confronting the Returned Archangels with their Big Lie could be the best way of getting the man-on-the-street to accept mankind's true history.

I'm not sure that this holds water. For one thing, Merlin isn't neccessarily the one who gets to make the decision. The Brethern have been working for centuries for a day when the entire truth about Safehold's origins can be brought into the open. I think that there is a principle threaded throughout the books that the Reveal should happen at the earliest moment practical. In other words, the more light and air as quick as possible, the better.

As for the timing, if the Archangels were to reappear and the Great Reveal were to occur at the same time, for the majority of the population, who do you think is going to have credibility, Merlin and the inner circle or the Archangels. To me this one looks like a nobrainer...

Don

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n7axw wrote:I'm not sure that this holds water. For one thing, Merlin isn't neccessarily the one who gets to make the decision. The Brethern have been working for centuries for a day when the entire truth about Safehold's origins can be brought into the open. I think that there is a principle threaded throughout the books that the Reveal should happen at the earliest moment practical. In other words, the more light and air as quick as possible, the better.

The Bretheren are extremely conservative, and risk-averse. Their standard for "out in the open" is a bit different than you and I might define it.

A "Great Reveal" implies a huge public announcement with fanfares and world-wide press coverage. I don't think that would be the best way to accomplish the Reveal. It might, in fact, be counter-productive and produce a knee-jerk rejection in the man-in-the-street of any Reformation effort.

A gradual expansion of the inner circle and/or Sisters of St Khody and conversion of Charis into what Alexandria (and Zion) was intended to be will suffice to get Safehold back into space and prepared to resist the Gbaba. It isn't necessary that those who choose to resist progress be informed, only that they be contained.

Weird Harold wrote:

n7axw wrote:I'm not sure that this holds water. For one thing, Merlin isn't neccessarily the one who gets to make the decision. The Brethern have been working for centuries for a day when the entire truth about Safehold's origins can be brought into the open. I think that there is a principle threaded throughout the books that the Reveal should happen at the earliest moment practical. In other words, the more light and air as quick as possible, the better.

The Bretheren are extremely conservative, and risk-averse. Their standard for "out in the open" is a bit different than you and I might define it.

A "Great Reveal" implies a huge public announcement with fanfares and world-wide press coverage. I don't think that would be the best way to accomplish the Reveal. It might, in fact, be counter-productive and produce a knee-jerk rejection in the man-in-the-street of any Reformation effort.

A gradual expansion of the inner circle and/or Sisters of St Khody and conversion of Charis into what Alexandria (and Zion) was intended to be will suffice to get Safehold back into space and prepared to resist the Gbaba. It isn't necessary that those who choose to resist progress be informed, only that they be contained.

The textev does support the idea that when it happens, it will be public, whether done by dramatic ammouncement or simply revealed without a lot of fanfare.

Your proposal would also eventually make it public unless the security was kept tight. I don't think the story arc is going to go that way. It is rather strongly implied that every child of God will have to choose. IIRC, the Reveal is what sets off the next war...although my memory is a bit hazy on that one.

Don

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Breaking the Writ's stranglehold over Safehold piecemeal makes a lot of sense and lets them subtly undermine it without throwing everything away at once and disturbing the fundamentalists/loyalists amongst the population. By the time the noisy segments start to notice, the damage is already long done. I'd start with the Book of Pasquale and follow up with the remainder of the practical-oriented elements of the Writ (agronomy, etc.).

In the Safeholdian worldview, disease isn't pestilence; it's sin. Every single example of disease is a reminder of Pasquale's intervention through his "curses." Arguably, it's the single most visible reminder of the Angels. And, amusingly, it's the most easily undermined since it's more than just bullshit explanations for natural phenomena meant to head off any questioning like you see with the sections on astronomy and gravity.

It wouldn't take much effort to improve microscope quality to the point where they're sophisticated enough to see microorganisms. At that point, you've introduced the field of microbiology since you've discovered the mechanism through which Pasquale's curses occur in the world. Once it becomes familiar to think in terms of germ, it becomes ordinary. Before long, you've started chipping away at the mysticism and mystery behind them if not destroying them outright.

Follow it up with incremental improvements in healing techniques and medicines. Better techniques will further chip away at the Writ (if there are better options, why didn't Pasquale think to mention them?) while simultaneously being very difficult to object to: it's hard to reject these sorts of advancements when they mean the difference between life and death for your children.

It all adds up to a silent assault on the parts of the Writ that affect people's daily lives while avoiding any direct clashes with the Writ itself. There's very little you can do on that front directly, so most all of your effort has to be focused on undermining its visible support so that when the Reveal comes, the groundwork is already done.

n7axw wrote:So the only serious question about the Great reveal is when it should happen, not if. Another subject complicating the discussion is the mellennial return of the archangels. Should the Great Reveal happen before or after that?

Interesting times ahead...

Don

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There's a huge credibility gap between any returning Angels and the Inner Circle, and it's not one that they can easily bridge. If it comes down to their word against Angels who are actually present and can actually defend themselves, Merlin and the Inner Circle will quickly lose that fight. It stacks the deck too far much against them, and there's no way Merlin would be willing to run the sort of risk that'd mean.

So, either the Reveal will happen in the next twenty years before the millennial return, or they'll figure out a way to defang any returning personalities. The only way you can do that is by taking the Temple and either pulling them from storage or disconnecting any potential tools that they can use from the Temple. Things like network connections, satellite uplinks to the OBS, prebuilt PICAs, etc. When the personality finally wakes up, Merlin gets to give them one hell of a surprise.

n7axw wrote:Your proposal would also eventually make it public unless the security was kept tight.

That's really the point. Simply removing the security would suffice as a "reveal" without a frontal attack on everyone's beliefs.