Direction of the story

There are a number on loose ends on how the story might end that have been dangling for several books now, some dating back to SoS back even further to Clyntahn's purge of the vicarate in AMF. I thought that it be time to go back and re-examine the subject to see if HFQ sheds light to refine our speculations somewhat.

The first that comes to my mind is Duchairn's plotting. Nothing further on that front that I can see. So far Duchairn bemoans Clyntahn but rationalizes his way through continuing in his present role. No action on any plot. But that is still there waiting to pop into the open. So who knows?

Then there is SoS Which narrowly failed to topple the Protector. Heavy cost in lives and the ruin of Clyntahn's reputation although that is still being unveiled. In addition to that it provides Charis with opportunity to put its armies on the mainland...

Integration of Corisande into the Empire smoothed by Daivyn and Irys' return and the attempted assasination of Irys and Hector on their wedding day. Corisandian troops coming up to be inserted into the conlict at an opportune moment?

Sharleyan's nobles plotting...

Nynian inserts herself into the situation in a new way as she "sniffs out" Merlin and we learn about Helm Cleaver... Could this intercept the vector of Duchairn's plotting?

Thirsk's situation heats up. Family is safely out of Dohlar. How will this impact Dohlar's participation in the Jihad and the overall story line?

Clyntahn's rationality deteriorates...he threatens to cast aside Maigwair and Duchairn and "their technicians" and give inquisition direct control of Jihad. Would this be a literary device for bringing a quick end to this part of the story? Or does Dirchain and Maigwair take successful steps in self defense and corral Clyntahn?

Lots more could be said here. Feel free to add them. All of the things RFC has afloat end up being a quite a brew. What I would suggest we discuss is how these threads advance the story as a whole...

Opine away!!!

Don

n7axw wrote:There are a number on loose ends on how the story might end that have been dangling for several books now, some dating back to SoS back even further to Clyntahn's purge of the vicarate in AMF. I thought that it be time to go back and re-examine the subject to see if HFQ sheds light to refine our speculations somewhat.

The first that comes to my mind is Duchairn's plotting. Nothing further on that front that I can see. So far Duchairn bemoans Clyntahn but rationalizes his way through continuing in his present role. No action on any plot. But that is still there waiting to pop into the open. So who knows?

There was a note in HFQ about Duchairn having some plotting based on the Treasury powerbase, but that it was a slow, soft sort of power and not a fit response to any violent moves Clyntahn may make soon.

The Church finds itself in a jihad. Duchairn's not willing to let go of the Church, so it's on him to see it through to a conclusion and maybe even try to recover it from Clyntahn's corruption of it into a bloodthirsty death machine. It's possible that's rationalization against an open confrontation that is too likely to get Duchairn killed, but I think that makes him out as more of a coward than he is. It's definitely possible that it's a rationalization against abandoning the Church and working to save Safehold from it, though in that case, it's a sort of moral cowardice at worst - better: a lack of the kind of courage to accept a wholesale upheaval in cherished values. And most of the time, that's a good thing!

Then there is SoS Which narrowly failed to topple the Protector. Heavy cost in lives and the ruin of Clyntahn's reputation although that is still being unveiled. In addition to that it provides Charis with opportunity to put its armies on the mainland...

Integration of Corisande into the Empire smoothed by Daivyn and Irys' return and the attempted assasination of Irys and Hector on their wedding day. Corisandian troops coming up to be inserted into the conlict at an opportune moment?

Could be. Not having to garrison them is nice in any case, and Corisandian rubber is performing well in the war effort already.

Sharleyan's nobles plotting...

Nynian inserts herself into the situation in a new way as she "sniffs out" Merlin and we learn about Helm Cleaver... Could this intercept the vector of Duchairn's plotting?

It would take people who identify as plotters coming from either direction meeting up in the middle; pure luck; or Helm Cleaver being prepared to help back up a move they can only suspect may be coming somehow some day. None of that can be ruled out, but each element is individually highly unlikely.

Thirsk's situation heats up. Family is safely out of Dohlar. How will this impact Dohlar's participation in the Jihad and the overall story line?

Clyntahn has long since destroyed any of Thirsk's loyalty to Zion. His loyalty to his family is no longer an issue, and his loyalty to his monarch and state, well, that's not going to argue for staying in the jihad if he can get them out of it. Same for his loyalty to the Church as an institution apart from the monster in the Temple.

He's one important man, but it will take a lot more to get Dohlar out. Still, if you were able to watch the pebbles beginning to move at the very beginning of an avalanche - that family out of danger represents one of them. More than that, it's nice that one good man and an innocent group of daughters, sons-in-law, and grandchildren no longer have that over their heads.

Clyntahn's rationality deteriorates...he threatens to cast aside Maigwair and Duchairn and "their technicians" and give inquisition direct control of Jihad. Would this be a literary device for bringing a quick end to this part of the story? Or does Dirchain and Maigwair take successful steps in self defense and corral Clyntahn?

Either would represent background for an alternative denouement to a gradual fight clear to the Temple's steps. Clyntahn beheading the Church's military and logistical leadership for religiously pure command would leave the Temple's forces to crumble; Duchairn and Magwair getting the Grand Maniac out of the way would open the path to a negotiated end.

Goodness, I have a nasty imagination.

Through devious channels, an obviously holy artifact could come into Clyntahn's possession, along with a back story that at the last need, when he feels betrayed, he can use it and every traitor to the Church inside the Temple will die.

Unfortunately the Temple would have been designed with detectors for vest-pocket nukes.

One loose end is Durchain plotting, Durchain has control of all of the charity/hospitals in Zion through being Treasurer.

We have seen foreshadowed that he has:

"Organized" them very well and increased there number and influence over all the poor and working class. This has mostly gone under Rayno's radar.

What could he do with this power?

Simply this if he and the priests running the all of the shelters asked, most of the poor/working class would rise up and do there bidding. Particularly if they thought they would lose the money and social services if they didn't. Which they would do because Clinton hates the wasted money so if Durchain goes so does 90% of the charity money.

Maybe its not an army but as the Lord Protector found out a mob under the control of dedicated priests should not be under estimated.

Durcharin also possibly has a small number of soldiers and officers under his control that Clinton thinks are his.

The Major in charge of his security detail comes to mind and his friends whom Rayno asked he could use. Drak has written on this extensively elsewhere.

Next book there plotting will come out!

JeffEngel wrote:

n7axw wrote:There are a number on loose ends on how the story might end that have been dangling for several books now, some dating back to SoS back even further to Clyntahn's purge of the vicarate in AMF. I thought that it be time to go back and re-examine the subject to see if HFQ sheds light to refine our speculations somewhat.

The first that comes to my mind is Duchairn's plotting. Nothing further on that front that I can see. So far Duchairn bemoans Clyntahn but rationalizes his way through continuing in his present role. No action on any plot. But that is still there waiting to pop into the open. So who knows?

There was a note in HFQ about Duchairn having some plotting based on the Treasury powerbase, but that it was a slow, soft sort of power and not a fit response to any violent moves Clyntahn may make soon.

The Church finds itself in a jihad. Duchairn's not willing to let go of the Church, so it's on him to see it through to a conclusion and maybe even try to recover it from Clyntahn's corruption of it into a bloodthirsty death machine. It's possible that's rationalization against an open confrontation that is too likely to get Duchairn killed, but I think that makes him out as more of a coward than he is. It's definitely possible that it's a rationalization against abandoning the Church and working to save Safehold from it, though in that case, it's a sort of moral cowardice at worst - better: a lack of the kind of courage to accept a wholesale upheaval in cherished values. And most of the time, that's a good thing!

Then there is SoS Which narrowly failed to topple the Protector. Heavy cost in lives and the ruin of Clyntahn's reputation although that is still being unveiled. In addition to that it provides Charis with opportunity to put its armies on the mainland...

Integration of Corisande into the Empire smoothed by Daivyn and Irys' return and the attempted assasination of Irys and Hector on their wedding day. Corisandian troops coming up to be inserted into the conlict at an opportune moment?

Could be. Not having to garrison them is nice in any case, and Corisandian rubber is performing well in the war effort already.

Sharleyan's nobles plotting...

Nynian inserts herself into the situation in a new way as she "sniffs out" Merlin and we learn about Helm Cleaver... Could this intercept the vector of Duchairn's plotting?

It would take people who identify as plotters coming from either direction meeting up in the middle; pure luck; or Helm Cleaver being prepared to help back up a move they can only suspect may be coming somehow some day. None of that can be ruled out, but each element is individually highly unlikely.

Thirsk's situation heats up. Family is safely out of Dohlar. How will this impact Dohlar's participation in the Jihad and the overall story line?

Clyntahn has long since destroyed any of Thirsk's loyalty to Zion. His loyalty to his family is no longer an issue, and his loyalty to his monarch and state, well, that's not going to argue for staying in the jihad if he can get them out of it. Same for his loyalty to the Church as an institution apart from the monster in the Temple.

He's one important man, but it will take a lot more to get Dohlar out. Still, if you were able to watch the pebbles beginning to move at the very beginning of an avalanche - that family out of danger represents one of them. More than that, it's nice that one good man and an innocent group of daughters, sons-in-law, and grandchildren no longer have that over their heads.

Clyntahn's rationality deteriorates...he threatens to cast aside Maigwair and Duchairn and "their technicians" and give inquisition direct control of Jihad. Would this be a literary device for bringing a quick end to this part of the story? Or does Dirchain and Maigwair take successful steps in self defense and corral Clyntahn?

Either would represent background for an alternative denouement to a gradual fight clear to the Temple's steps. Clyntahn beheading the Church's military and logistical leadership for religiously pure command would leave the Temple's forces to crumble; Duchairn and Magwair getting the Grand Maniac out of the way would open the path to a negotiated end.

Hi JeffEngel,

Nice response. The possibility I see with the Duchairn plot and Helm Cleaver connecting has to do with that envelop Hauwerd Wylsyn passed Duchairn right before the purge. What was in it? Info on the Madame, perhaps? Could it be that he is aware of Nynian and she could be an interface between him and Helm Cleaver? In that case you could see a convergence... Or, could all of this have something to do with that quick trip to Zion that Nynian approached Merlin about... a trip she expected because she needed to be on the scene at the decisive moment, a moment we are still awaiting at the end of HFQ, but which hasn't happened yet?

As for Thirsk, I suspect his sailors are getting a bit tired of Clyntahn's antics. They felt dirtied by what happened to Manthyr and his people. Now Clyntahn proposes to do the same thing to their own officers who found themselves on the short end of a fight where they suffered a 70% loss... and to add insult to injury, Clyntahn wants their admiral, the one who has built their navy and made what victory they have experienced possible, to accept an invitation to the same party. Can we spell mutiny, anyone? Throw the inquisitors overboard!

Or teasing out another possibility, imagine the reaction of Ahlverez's survivors should Sir Raimos get an invitation to Zion. I wonder if they could become a praetorian guard. Soldiers on land usually are in a better position to make an impact than sailors are...although, remember those naval bases in Murmansk at the onset of the October revolution in Russia...

I'm a bit more optimistic than you are about Dohlar's readiness to bail on the Jihad than you are, I think. Dohlar has already paid a heavier cost for its participation in the Jihad for its size than anyone on the TL side other than perhaps the Temple Lands. Thanks to those broadsheets, they have been getting the other point of view. A word for Dohlar could well be discouraged and war weary. So, we'll see.

Don

There's precedent for mutiny against the church. Remember the ship from a few books ago, which surrendered despite the wishes of the church personnel on board, all of whom died suddenly before they could interfere?

Expert snuggler wrote:There's precedent for mutiny against the church. Remember the ship from a few books ago, which surrendered despite the wishes of the church personnel on board, all of whom died suddenly before they could interfere?

Well, yes. That would be precedent if anybody got home to report it. As it is, I'm afraid that the incident got lost in the static.

Don

One loose end that I have noticed is regarding the note that Wilson slipped Duchairn when he "bumped" into him in the hall. There was no indication of the contents and I wonder if that might be what will power Duchairn's revolt?

n7axw wrote:

Expert snuggler wrote:There's precedent for mutiny against the church. Remember the ship from a few books ago, which surrendered despite the wishes of the church personnel on board, all of whom died suddenly before they could interfere?

Well, yes. That would be precedent if anybody got home to report it. As it is, I'm afraid that the incident got lost in the static.

Don

Yes, but surely the 'mutineers' weren't the only Dohlahrans who thought that way? It's at least a straw in the wind.

Randomiser wrote:
Yes, but surely the 'mutineers' weren't the only Dohlahrans who thought that way? It's at least a straw in the wind.

I thought that the incident being referred to was that Desnarian galleon delivering paymemt for timber to Fallos where the captain had the guardsmen shot who had been guarding the gold to avoid a fight with the privateer that had overtaken them. But maybe that doesn't qualify as mutiny??

Don