[Spoiler] The final chapter

Just wondering, but ... anybody else find it mighty convenient that there was that accident that delayed the King Harald ships?

I mean, here we are close to finishing them and then they just get pushed back into the next book. With this book just ending with a certain admiral who's probably about to switch sides.
Here we are about to get a few new ships (which will need an admiral) and here we are about to get an admiral (who'll probably need something to do).
hm.......

And wouldn't it be poetic irony, if the man who built the Dolaran navy got to be the man who smashed it?

Then again, I'd love to read Clynthan's tirade when he get's the news ...

Bosparan wrote:Just wondering, but ... anybody else find it mighty convenient that there was that accident that delayed the King Harald ships?

I mean, here we are close to finishing them and then they just get pushed back into the next book. With this book just ending with a certain admiral who's probably about to switch sides.
Here we are about to get a few new ships (which will need an admiral) and here we are about to get an admiral (who'll probably need something to do).
hm.......

And wouldn't it be poetic irony, if the man who built the Dolaran navy got to be the man who smashed it?

Then again, I'd love to read Clynthan's tirade when he get's the news ...

Hmm. Don't think Thirsk will be switching sides. Or at least, if he does switch sides, he's going to be bringing his whole kingdom with him. He's just too loyal to his own king and nation for that.

Some people have speculated that he's going to be admitted into the Inner Circle. Frankly, I don't believe that will happen either. But if it does, I STILL can't see him taking orders from Cayleb and Sharleyan. I think he'll keep the Secret, but I'd expect him to use SNARC capability to help DOHLAR as much as possible... which is basically as long as it takes for the Merlin and Charisians to realize what he's doing and cut him off from the SNARC take.

He will honorably follow the King of Dohlar, whoever that is (hint).

I think if he does leave Dohlar, it's most likely that he simply sits on the sidelines. He might be forced to leave out of simple self-preservation, and the chance to be with his family, but I sincerely doubt that he would truly switch sides. I just don't see him able to fight the navy that he spent so long building.

Bosparan wrote:Just wondering, but ... anybody else find it mighty convenient that there was that accident that delayed the King Harald ships?

I mean, here we are close to finishing them and then they just get pushed back into the next book. With this book just ending with a certain admiral who's probably about to switch sides.
Here we are about to get a few new ships (which will need an admiral) and here we are about to get an admiral (who'll probably need something to do).
hm.......

And wouldn't it be poetic irony, if the man who built the Dolaran navy got to be the man who smashed it?

Then again, I'd love to read Clynthan's tirade when he get's the news ...

Ordinarily I would agree with you... We have a nice round peg that could slot into a nice empty round hole. But while Thirsk is more than capable of adapting to SOME things that are new, I think the whole notion of steam-powered, massive, all-metal battleships requiring all new doctrine is too much, too soon. Not that the ships would be in too much danger when facing conventional Safeholdian threats (although some of the new shore-based coastal-defense pieces being considered could be troublesome), but I see someone like Bahrns (with lots of steam-powered, ironclad experience) getting a divisional command. While it's possible that the battleships will be split up into penny packets, I just don't think so. Wasn't it Caleb who said he wanted to sail them into Lake Pei and right up to the front door of the Temple? (paraphrasing liberally).

IIRC, the King of Dohlar has minor heirs so if something happened to the King, there would be a need for a regency council.

So if Thirsk survives the "event" that kills the King, he might be a position to be on (or lead) that council.

Note, I really doubt that Thirsk would cause (even by inaction) the death of his King.

Expert snuggler wrote:He will honorably follow the King of Dohlar, whoever that is (hint).

Expert snuggler wrote:He will honorably follow the King of Dohlar, whoever that is (hint).

Indeed. He might also facilitate the current King's abdication in cavorted of the Crown Prince

Spoiler, which probably doesn't need said ...









In HFQ, it says that Dohlar's King has a not quite 16 year old heir. And that the King has actually discussed abdicating on at least more than one occasion with Duke Fern and been talked out of it, because a Regency for his heir was not something Duke Fern thought wise at that time. So it's quite probable that if enough of the powerful potential regents in Dohlar decided that getting rid of the King was beneficial, he would very likely be willing to step down, no need for assassins, from them, anyway.
But considering that the King has basically turned most decision making over to his council and Duke Fern in particular, he's already pretty much abdicated in everything but name.
So I'm not sure that just getting rid of the King would change much for Dohlar, depending on how and why the King gets taken out of the picture ...

I'm very interested to see how the convo with Thirsk goes, as I can't see what he can do, that is consistent with his morals. They pretty much have to tell him that his family is okay, to be decent human beings and because hiding it from him and him finding out in the wrong way could have some downsides for them too. I'm sure hoping the next book will finish this discussion "in the moment" not as some flashback recap!

And yet, even if he truly believes that they will not try to use them to control him, the fact that his family is in their hands has to influence him and his actions, to at least an extent. And he was already thinking that Clinton would wake soon to the fact that he has no leverage on him anymore and be moved to try and get rid of him even sooner. Nor do I think he could obey one more dishonorable command from the Church, he's about at the breaking point there right now and now Clinton has no hostages.
On the other hand, I don't see him turning his coat and being able to betray his country, king and the navy he helped build by going over to Charis directly, especially being willing to fight for them against Dohlar.

With as much character development as there has been with him though, I don't see him sitting out the rest of the story arc either. I could definitely see him becoming a friendly rival to Charis though, if he and who knows who else, can somehow get Dohlar out of the Jihad and breakaway from the direction of the Group of 4.

So the crown loyalists have the majority

Frankly, I think the last episode has been the death-knell where Thirsk's loyalty to the crown is concerned. The first act of surrendering prisoners to the inquisition and the punishment has already been bad enough, doing it a second time (even if the prisoners were intercepted) is even worse.
Then, how much of a kingdom is it anymore? Any major decision is now done by the church.
Adding a bit more oil to the flame, a fair portion of the royal council is hostile to Thirsk as well.
Uncomfortable.
While taking some heat probably wouldn't affect him, dishonoring his navy however does have a certain impact on his loyalty.
Throwing in that he is looking at facing the punishment himself - and that for doing his best to serve his Kingdom, and thus the Jihad - I can see him switching side.
How can he serve a king who would acquiesce to see his oathbound blamelessly tortured to death?

Drak Bibliophile wrote:So if Thirsk survives the "event" that kills the King, he might be a position to be on (or lead) that council.

Dead men lead no councils. Clynthan will see Thirsk dead first, and duke Thorast isn't going to look kindly upon his enemy either.
It has in recent volumes been repeatedly stated that Thirsk is pretty much dancing on blades' edge. His Dohlar-internal rivals would have long since dragged him down, if his successes hadn't made him indispensable for the church.
Given that his church protection is pretty much about to expire, Thirsk cannot remain and survive. Either the church gets him, or somehow the church's influence is miraculously removed ... in which case Thorast gets him.

Considering that he cannot serve his king anymore (as dead men can't), Thirsk is at the end of his oath anyway. His remaining choices as I can see them are either to die or to switch sides. And given the shocks his loyalty has suffered so far (see argument above), I don't really see him choosing death.

Finally, let us reconsider the actual sovereignty of Dohlar:
Currently, the church dominates foreign policy, military manufacturing and all internal policies that affect the Jihad. It has shown blatant interference in trade decisions (closing ports to Charis) and has made it clear that it will enact any policy that it chooses to, whether Dholar agrees to them or not.
Basically, Dohlar has become a subject nation of the Church.
Now there's only one way to free Dohlar, is there?
From that point of view, I really don't see another choice Thirsk can make. And if he does make it and switches side, do you really think he will let another admiral do what needs doing to his country and king?
Given his personality, I'd think he'd want to do it himself:
- To see it done right
- To ensure honor is seen to (regarding his former men, civilians, etc.)
- As a penance for switching sides in the first place (he wouldn't exactly enjoy doing it after all)

Of course, all might work out very differently ...

Cheers,
Bosparan

PS:

evilauthor wrote:I think he'll keep the Secret, but I'd expect him to use SNARC capability to help DOHLAR as much as possible... which is basically as long as it takes for the Merlin and Charisians to realize what he's doing and cut him off from the SNARC take.

I think that's about the last thing Thirsk'd do. If he gives his word, it means something to him. That's the whole point of the dilemma after all ...

Stormy wrote:Spoiler, which probably doesn't need said ...






With as much character development as there has been with him though, I don't see him sitting out the rest of the story arc either. I could definitely see him becoming a friendly rival to Charis though, if he and who knows who else, can somehow get Dohlar out of the Jihad and breakaway from the direction of the Group of 4.

Ahlvarez, the CO of the Dohlaran Expedition Corps to the Siddarmark, could be someone Thirsk could turn to - even if the personal relationship between the two of them isn't anything i'd call friendly. But they made similiar experiences during their expeditions ... and both definitely have learned some lessons in political tactics and strategy along that way. Even Thirsk's religious "counselor" could be part of such a team ... with the additional benefit, that he could get them an religious approved layer of responsibility and reliability in the eyes of the dohlaran public (at least the part of it that counts).