1983747t903

18484p2048t73o4pe8

While RFC does draw inspiration from earth historical periods and there are likely some parallels between Corisande and Ireland, I doubt the latter is a true pattern for the former.

Nearly all RFC's historical parallels have significant alterations. For example, readers thought the Peoples Republic of Haven was an analogue of Napoleonic France, but there are actually stronger parallels with how a future version of the USA might end up.

There are a few small parallels between World War II and Safehold, but I do not find it compelling. There are far more differences. For one thing, the religious aspects, and especially the universality of the Church of God Awaiting, simply has no parallels in Earth history. I don't consider Clyntahn a parallel to Hitler, except perhaps in their megalomania. The situations really do not coincide. The comparison of Corisande with Ireland is particularly weak. For one thing, Corisande has only been conquered for a handful of years. For another, Charis has been extremely careful not to send in forces to suppress restlessness. It just does not feel like the Irish situation at all, to me.

Your mileage may vary.

In many ways, I would suggest that the treatment of Corisande is more like the treatment of Lower Canada by the British. Recognising the differences, and handling them with kid gloves.

wyrm wrote:In many ways, I would suggest that the treatment of Corisande is more like the treatment of Lower Canada by the British. Recognising the differences, and handling them with kid gloves.

Wyrm, do you say "eh" a lot. Google and Wikipedia told me some on Lower and Upper Canada. Like most amurricans, my knowledge of Canadian history is virtually non-existent. Our history of the war of 1812 gives short shrift to the invasion of Canada and (assuming the US history taught in NY in the 60's is pretty much the same for all US kids, even today) makes no mention of a related rebellion in Lower Canada.
Question for folks who live or lived in states bordering Canada, did you learn anything on Canadian history in high school?

SonicShane97

I don't see that great a parallel with Ireland here. Eire was a neutral country in WW2 unlike Corisande. No part of Corisande was currently or historically under Charisian rule at the start of our story. Resentment by some in an occupied country of an occupying power can be found practically wherever there is an occupying power. The church forces are not much like Nazi Germany, they are multinational, they have lots of long-standing popular support all over the world, they hate innovation rather than striving for it etc.

Where RFC draws from our history it is in a rather general sense and much more from an earlier period. The Protestant Reformation and religious wars in Europe are a much stronger influence than WW2 Ireland.

BTW, Just for the record, and 'amurrucans' with very vague notions of other countries' history and current affairs, "Even today, some people living in Northern Ireland are opposed to British rule and would rather live under an independent Ireland." would be more accurate, don't you think? Some people in Northern Ireland are very happy to be part of the UK and would hate to be part of an independent Ireland. Probably they are still the majority.

Randomiser wrote:SonicShane97

I don't see that great a parallel with Ireland here. Eire was a neutral country in WW2 unlike Corisande. No part of Corisande was currently or historically under Charisian rule at the start of our story. Resentment by some in an occupied country of an occupying power can be found practically wherever there is an occupying power. The church forces are not much like Nazi Germany, they are multinational, they have lots of long-standing popular support all over the world, they hate innovation rather than striving for it etc.

Where RFC draws from our history it is in a rather general sense and much more from an earlier period. The Protestant Reformation and religious wars in Europe are a much stronger influence than WW2 Ireland.

BTW, Just for the record, and 'amurrucans' with very vague notions of other countries' history and current affairs, "Even today, some people living in Northern Ireland are opposed to British rule and would rather live under an independent Ireland." would be more accurate, don't you think? Some people in Northern Ireland are very happy to be part of the UK and would hate to be part of an independent Ireland. Probably they are still the majority.

What he did get right, though, was that in large part Eire's neutrality in WW2 was indeed due to the memory of British occupation being pretty raw. Valera, in particular, hated the British.

What he missed was how long that particular conflict had gone on and how deeply it had festered. That is where the comparison with Corisande really breaks down.

What would interest me would be how much Irish feeling toward the Brits has changed sinse that time, presumably in a direction of mellowing out as those memories of occupation grow more distant.

Don

n7axw wrote:What he did get right, though, was that in large part Eire's neutrality in WW2 was indeed due to the memory of British occupation being pretty raw. Valera, in particular, hated the British.

What he missed was how long that particular conflict had gone on and how deeply it had festered. That is where the comparison with Corisande really breaks down.

What would interest me would be how much Irish feeling toward the Brits has changed sinse that time, presumably in a direction of mellowing out as those memories of occupation grow more distant.

Don

As memories of a hostile occupation grow more distant, antipathy as a part of cultural identity can grow more set in. For a case here in the U.S., consider southern U.S. sentiment toward the north (and/or the west coast, culturally a bit of a northern colony). Reconstruction ended in 1876, 139 years ago, but a certain low-grade hostility to the damn Yankees has become a part of southern heritage. Ireland's troubles with their eastern neighbor go back far, far longer; the nastiness was a whole lot nastier; and religious differences mixed up in there are almost totally absent in the U.S. north vs. south comparison case.

Corisande's suffered far less nastiness than either of those cases over a far briefer periods and the religious differences are certainly smaller than the Irish/English case and possibly even smaller than the U.S. north/south ones. Granted, any group of humans can manage to keep a sense of insult festering for a long, long time with enough work, but in the case of Corisande, it would TAKE work and I think most everyone there has better things to do.

The Schism on Safe hold is far more reminiscent of the Protestant Reformation and the consequent religious wars that engulfed much of western and central continental Europe. The GoGA's concentration camps and treatment of Reformists in Siddarmark remind me of the British concentration camps for Boer families during the South African War of 1899-1902, although I'll grant that the British never used their captives as slave labour. That last did happen in the Nazi death camps, but again, the CoGA probably isn't intent on exterminating its camps' residents. The point being that Mr Weber is an excellent student of human, and especially western, history. He doesn't need to draw parallels or to base events in his novels on specific examples; instead, once he has created a particular context, his knowledge of history and insight into human nature seems to enable him to come up with reasonable outcomes to any given event or development within his books. That is why there are so many instances of apparent parallels, because his stories are about realistic people in a very human 'reality'.

n7axw wrote:What he did get right, though, was that in large part Eire's neutrality in WW2 was indeed due to the memory of British occupation being pretty raw. Valera, in particular, hated the British.

Like the other neutral nations of Europe during WW2, the Irish Free State compromised it's neutrality. De Valera may have hated the British[1], and he would certainly have been aware that many of his countrymen definitely did hate them, but he was clearly also aware that if the UK fell to the 3rd Reich then Ireland would swiftly follow. Hence such policies as :-

* Interning German airman who crashed/parachuted into the Irish Free State, whilst allowing RAF personal where generally allowed to return to the UK.
* Allowing the UK to retrieve crashed RAF aircraft from the Irish Free State.
* Senior officers from the Irish and British Armies training together.
* The Donegal Corridor.
* Passing on aircraft & submarine sightings, and weather reports.

[1] An independent Ireland would see its own independence in jeopardy the moment it saw the independence of Britain seriously threatened. Mutual self-interest would make the people of these two islands, if both independent, the closest of allies in a moment of real national danger to either - Éamon de Valera, 1920.