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What is the path to electricity?

This fascinating series is a combination of historical seafaring, swashbuckling adventure, and high technological science-fiction. Join us in a discussion!
What is the path to electricity?
Post by Expert snuggler   » Sun Aug 30, 2015 4:32 pm

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Duckk's archive fu, in another thread, turned up
"David's words, emphasis mine.

And, third, the notion of lightning as sacred and not, under any circumstances, to be profaned by mortal hands provides the permanent remembrance of not just Langhorne's existence but of the consequences of Langhorne's wrath."

There's wide agreement here that the Safehold population, even in Charis, has an electricity taboo as part of their core beliefs and would turn against anyone trying to introduce it. Further, that an electric civilization has to wait until someone can "nullify" the Writ.

How is that even possible?

After the Reformation, after the Enlightenment, people of today's Earth will often die rather than violate a key article of faith. This is after our equivalent of The Reveal.

No religion I can think of has ever renounced its scriptures, and the Writ is provably correct, making it even harder.

The only path I can imagine working is gradual re-interpretation motivated by money. Even a fresh "revelation" from an apparent archangel visiting every church on the planet wouldn't work, not on people programmed from childhood, and that approach is opposite to Merlin's goals anyway. Ditto every archbishop on the planet hearing voices saying that the archangels's plan all along was to re-introduce electricity.

Perhaps the answer includes the Church of Charis "aiding" their, uh, brothers in religion by taking over funding of primary education. A lifetime later, there's a population who's been taught from childhood "it's not to be taken literally".

One way or another it has to happen. They're not going to fight the Gbaba successfully without electric power and computers. But how?
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Re: What is the path to electricity?
Post by Thendisnia   » Sun Aug 30, 2015 5:13 pm

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As this series is my first introduction to the MWW I am not aware of the space tech that exists in his other series and their basis if any in RL science with this in mind I wonder or put forth for discussion is it possible that a) the path to the future tech in this series may use something other than electricity - ie. light/heat based computing or energy transfer (yes still electron movement I know) or some other technology perhaps passed over in our own history for economic reasons; and/or (b) with what commander Pei said to Joe about needing 50 years to trump the Ghaba is it possible that a emancipated Scheuller AI under the temple has spent the last near millennial in an excellerated VR extending the TF knowledge base through VR experimentation giving an eventual reveal the basis to skip our current tech base Newtonian/Einsteinein(?) physics and move directly in to what have you??

What say you my peers? With RFC's history basis, is the fringe of the patent office, in the absence of Rockefeller's metered society truly unavailable to us for speculation - true interstellar flight seems to require it....
Last edited by Thendisnia on Mon Aug 31, 2015 9:30 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: What is the path to electricity?
Post by Kakai   » Sun Aug 30, 2015 5:52 pm

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Don't forget that there's another war in the making after this one. Perhaps this is the key. After all, the current war is in process of discrediting CoGA as an institution.

Perhaps the next war will discredit Archangels as paragons of truth and right? Say, Temple Thing will be some form of archangel - AI, PICA, clone, whatever - and starts making up really despicable stuff to win despite being established by the Writ as having moral code. Or perhaps the archangel-thingy will start giving electric equipment to soldiers on its side and Charisians will capture it and start using under pretense "we're the good guys" or "if they can, we can". After this second war's over, there'd be a lot of electric stuff laying around and I don't think Merlin would let it be put into boxes and worshipped. Quite the opposite, really, understood and reverse-engineered.
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SPOILER. Re: What is the path to electricity?
Post by Randomiser   » Sun Aug 30, 2015 6:03 pm

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SPOILERS BELOW






I don't know what exactly, there may be some dramatic twist in the story line. Barring that I would guess that several factors might be worked on or with. Destruction on the anti innovation mindset through changing the education system. Getting the scientific method into use in lots of areas of technology so people see it works and brings prosperity, but you firstly tackle the areas where the proscriptions are weak or fuzzy, not the areas like electricity where they are strongest. It may be that the real history of the sisters of ST Kohdy and the contents of his diary needs to leak out bit by bit, starting in Charis. Likewise some or all of St Zherneau's "special" library needs to be shared more widely in preparation for general publication. It may be that the most useful thing would be for Charis to industrialise like crazy and become even more the workshop of the world so it is even more dominant come the real wars of religion when the great reveal is made. We could be a generation or maybe even two away from that, depending if RFC sticks with the present cast or wants to invent a new one.
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Re: What is the path to electricity?
Post by JeffEngel   » Sun Aug 30, 2015 6:32 pm

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Expert snuggler wrote:Duckk's archive fu, in another thread, turned up
"David's words, emphasis mine.

And, third, the notion of lightning as sacred and not, under any circumstances, to be profaned by mortal hands provides the permanent remembrance of not just Langhorne's existence but of the consequences of Langhorne's wrath."

There's wide agreement here that the Safehold population, even in Charis, has an electricity taboo as part of their core beliefs and would turn against anyone trying to introduce it. Further, that an electric civilization has to wait until someone can "nullify" the Writ.

How is that even possible?
I wonder just how far that taboo is taken. Rub two pieces of silk together - heck, rub a fuzzy head of hair vigorously - pet your cat lizard in dry weather - and you're generating static electricity. Do Safeholders seriously believe that's profaning the Rakurai?

I know that some people with sincere religious beliefs grounded in different social background and lifestyles here on Earth today will have taboos that most of the rest of us would find just as bizarrely easy to transgress. So that question isn't actually quite rhetorical. But by the same token, if there's room to make the strictest adherence to a taboo look a bit silly within a worldview, there's a wedge to loosen the taboo entirely. So maybe those are some of those wedges for Safehold, if the electricity taboo is that strict.
After the Reformation, after the Enlightenment, people of today's Earth will often die rather than violate a key article of faith. This is after our equivalent of The Reveal.

No religion I can think of has ever renounced its scriptures, and the Writ is provably correct, making it even harder.
Well - its injunctions have, for the most part, tangible and accurate penalties for their violation, and its historical account is remarkably consistent with the available early historical documentation (the Testimonies). But where the Writ can't be disproven without the technology it denies Safehold, it certainly could be with it, and rival accounts could crop up if (e.g.) microscopy could back up a germ theory of disease. And historically, it's not going to square with suppressed accounts such as that of St. Zherneau and others.

One thing terrestrial religions have had going for them is that they have had centuries of tradition that resists taking them literally enough to be vulnerable to falsification. The Writ hasn't had that kind of defensive fuzziness, because there was no expectation that it would ever need it, so it could be safer just being "perfect" and inviting totally literal, straightforward reading. With the Reveal(s) coming, that strategy will backfire.
The only path I can imagine working is gradual re-interpretation motivated by money. Even a fresh "revelation" from an apparent archangel visiting every church on the planet wouldn't work, not on people programmed from childhood, and that approach is opposite to Merlin's goals anyway. Ditto every archbishop on the planet hearing voices saying that the archangels's plan all along was to re-introduce electricity.

Perhaps the answer includes the Church of Charis "aiding" their, uh, brothers in religion by taking over funding of primary education. A lifetime later, there's a population who's been taught from childhood "it's not to be taken literally".

One way or another it has to happen. They're not going to fight the Gbaba successfully without electric power and computers. But how?

That's one possibility. Another is retreating from literalism piecemeal, as needed - and with it, retreat from taking the Writ quite so seriously, except as some sort of symbol of a religious community.

Don't get me wrong - that can still be quite serious. For that matter, I think it's in just that sense that most theoretically literalist believers on Earth take their religion now: community first, practice second, dogma somewhere along after them. That's sadly quite enough to get people serious enough to chop up other people, but not seriously enough to keep them from using a cell phone.
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Re: What is the path to electricity?
Post by jeremyr   » Mon Aug 31, 2015 12:31 am

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There's always the posibility that at the 1000 year point the return is to start a holy war against the gaba and lift many of the proscriptions. Maybe Langhorne thought 100 yrs would be long enough to hide. Wild speculation, but it would solve a lot of problems.
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Re: What is the path to electricity?
Post by Expert snuggler   » Mon Aug 31, 2015 2:12 am

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Dang this is a good forum. Special things for JeffEngel's insights.

If the Thing Under the Temple announces an end to the Proscriptions, that would feel like, pardon the phrase, a deus ex machina. I trust the author, though. Even if the archangels say useful things on their return ("The spirits are about to speak!" "Are they friendly spirits?" "Friendly?! Just listen!") they are certain to create some new kind of dramatic conflict with the good guys.

Would Clyntahn shrink from using electricity for victory? His only God is his own power, after all.
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Re: What is the path to electricity?
Post by Randomiser   » Mon Aug 31, 2015 4:57 am

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JeffEngel, minor nit

The Safeholdets know all about germs already, they are little demons that casuse disease and need to be fought and resisted according to the holy Pasquale's instructions, so said a post by Himself. (IIRC) After all they have had telescopes forever so they only needed to turn them round to do microscopy. Not sure what the Writ says in detail about astronomy though. It's bound to say something, for similar reasons. The Archangels really did their best to provide a comprehensive but closed worldview.
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Re: What is the path to electricity?
Post by JeffEngel   » Mon Aug 31, 2015 6:58 am

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Randomiser wrote:JeffEngel, minor nit

The Safeholdets know all about germs already, they are little demons that casuse disease and need to be fought and resisted according to the holy Pasquale's instructions, so said a post by Himself. (IIRC)
Thanks. Huh. I wonder if there's really anything wrong there then - it may just amount to subbing in 'demon' for 'germ'. Later Safeholdian medical demonologists may distinguish between bacterial, viral, and prion demons....
After all they have had telescopes forever so they only needed to turn them round to do microscopy. Not sure what the Writ says in detail about astronomy though. It's bound to say something, for similar reasons. The Archangels really did their best to provide a comprehensive but closed worldview.

It's supposed to be a Ptolemaic scheme - so Safehold at the middle, unmoving, with Langhorne, any inner system planets, Kau-zhi, and any outer system planets in successive spheres.

That runs afoul of elliptical orbits. The Ptolemaic system developed, initially, little additional circles for the planets to spin on to account for that. You immediately lose both the ability to think of them as solid (frictionless) spheres in which planets are stuck, and any sense of tidy, "perfect" circular motion. If they've got good telescopes and working calendars, they've got to be that far along, which just means they're all set for a Copernicus - although they're going to need to swallow universal gravitation and feel a sense of pressure for mathematical tidiness to follow Earth's path that way. A sense that the universe does give a hoot about mathematic tidiness is likely to come out of a free and thorough exploration of it, but Safehold's only on early steps that way, and hasn't had the Pythagorean and Platonic traditions Earth (particularly around Greece, of course) had to nudge them that way in advance of empirical science.

Maybe Langhorne et al had the good sense to tweak Ptolemaic astronomy a bit so that the epicycles (the additional smaller circular movements) aren't so ad hoc in appearance, and no idea of crystal spheres in which planets sit ever showed up. We're not told it's Ptolemaic in every grubby detail, after all.
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Re: What is the path to electricity?
Post by Duckk   » Mon Aug 31, 2015 7:37 am

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