Optimal Charisian Navy (IMHO)

For quite a lot of time on this forum I have a reputation of active critic of the Royal Charisian Navy course of development (especially the "King Harrahld"-class). As a result, to be not just a sensless critic, now I feel obliged to at least express my opinion about the optimal course of Charisian Navy development. All IMHO, of course, with all possible respect to RFC.

1) The first thing that Charisian Navy really need is screw gunboats. Or small sloops, for that matter - small, wooden-hulled steamships, capable of both the ocean and the coastal operation.

The good example of this kind of ships, i think, may be the "Unadila"-class gunboat (known also as 90-days gunboats) build for Union Navy durin American Civil War:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unadilla-class_gunboat

This ships, I may say, represented almost the perfect multi-purpose units for Charisian situation. What i am proposing, is the 500-700 tonn wooden screw steamer, with the draft of no more than 2,5-3 meters, capable of mantaining 8-10 knots on steam, and armed with one pivoted rifled cannon and 3-4 smoothbores.

- They are cheap and easy to build in great numbers. The Charisians could build them on standard shipyards, and their simple steam engines - not the complex triple-expansion type! - could be at least partially build by many factories. The large gunboat programme would gave the Empire's shipbuilder a priceless expirience of building and mantaining the steamships, that they lacked completely. And - it would gave the Empire the fleet of dozens, maybe even hundreds armed steamship in less than a year.

- They are perfectly capable of dealing with blockading duty, by catching any sail blockade runner (simply because gunboats are wind-independent) and repulsing any attempt of sortie by Church or Dohlaran galleons. The sail ships can't effectively fight the steamers, even if their artillery are similar - and the Charisian rifled guns gave ICN the tremendous advantage.

Simply speaking, any Charisian sail galleons on blockade duty would be worse than steamships. If some Church squadron would try to sortie, the Charisian galleons would be forced to take considerable damage from the Church shell-firing guns. On the other way, the steam gunboats are virtually in no danger of being attacked by Church galleons; due to the steam propulsion, the gunboats would be perfectly able to stay outside the sailships boardside, and pound the Church ships by their rifled cannons.

- They are much better against coastal fortifications. Due to the steam power, shallow draft and small silhouette, the steam gunboats would be much harder to hit than the sail galleon, big and limited in maneuver, especially near the coastline.

- They coould be perfect escort ships for the convoys, capable of driving off any force of Deshnarian raiders. Again, no sailship could outmaneuvre the steamer!

- They need a crews much less than a galleon. The ICN could, probably, crew a dozen of gunboats with a sailors of one galleon. So, the economy of manpower - which is the Empire's biggest problem now - would be huge, because the steam gunboats is much more combat-effective that sail galleons. We could trade the galleons on blockading duty for the equival number of steam gunboats, that would require only about the 1/10 of manpower of galleon fleet. By disarming the galleons and replacing them with small gunboats on one-to-one basis, we would have:

1 - The general economy on the manpower

2 - A lot of heavy guns to use elsewhere

3 - A nice, big galleon hulls for transport duty

So, in my opinion, the wooden screw gunboats is "all pro's", and the best thing that the Charis was perfectly capable of obtaining them in very little time.

2) The second things is ocean-capable ironclads. You see, i'm completely against KH's because of their cost, complexity and lack of reasonable tactical usage; but the more old-fashioned ironclads is what the Charis may really need.

Currently, the Church haven't got any armor-pirecing heavy guns. And this would be for quite a while, because they haven't OWL to make the calculations and would be forced to do all this old-fashioned way. The best thing that Church could probably build is a large Brooke rifle with solid cylindrical shot. And it would take years to do even that.

So, what we really need is the ship, that would be protected as much as possible from relatively weak guns. There is no point of citadel scheme of "protecting only the vital guns"; this scheme worked against the equival powerfull guns, not against the weaker. What we need, is the ship, armored in therms of eraly ironclads - from waterline to the upper deck, that couldn't be possibly penetrated by current or forecable Church ammunition.

The simplest way to do this, it to take the atrocity against common sense, known as the sail=powered ironclad galleons, and fit at least some steam propulsion on them. There is NO REASON to build ironclad, wich is sail-powered, and in one snippet Thrisk already explained, why.

If we still prefer the purpose-build ship, we may think about something about 5000-7000 tonns, wooden-hulled. Yes, wooden. Charis simply haven't got any ironship-repairing capability outside the Old Charis, and repairing the wooden hull would be much easier.

The ship also should be with high-freeboard to better seakeeping. I think, that the best choice is the old "Ocean"-class ironclads,

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oc%C3%A9an-class_ironclad

- build with better armour and more powerfull Charisian rifles. IMHO, the 8-inch rifles would be more than capable of dealing with any sort of Church ship and fortresses.

3) Ad the last, but not the least - the steam avisos. What the Charis - especially Inner Circle - desperately need, is a fleet of small, steam-powered, fast avisos, capable of transporting information on the speed of 15-20 knots.

There were a lot of situations, where the Inner Circle was greatly cinstrained in their actions, because they were forced to pretend that they didn't knew about that. The fleet of fast steam couriers would at least partially solved this problems by making the data transfer a lot quicker. There would be much less situations, when the Inner Circle would be forced to do nothing and wait just because they weren't supposed to knew something already, before the data arrived on the official channels. Well, if we could make official channels move quickly, we would nullify this problem!

Two criticisms come to mind here. First, if you use wooden hulls, how do you cope with the church's explosive shells?

Secondly, I think your timetable is unrealistic. I don't believe Charis can come up with the steam engines you need in the time you specify.

Charis has really rendered its own navy obsolete, but fortunately everyone else is even worse off so obsolete turns out to be a relative term. Unfortunately given the other demands on its industrial plant, updating is going to take time.

Probably the best thing for now is to finish off the Haarahlds and get them over to Sharpfield and to push the ironclad programs as hard as possible in hopes of sending a squadron or so of Cities along with the Haarahlds as per original plan.

I agree with you that the situation is less than ideal at this time. But I suspect it will take several years to completely convert over to steam. Until then, sail powered galleons and schooners will be relavant.

Don

I would agree that an "Aviso" would be useful, but for a reason Dilandu didn't bring up. They would be excellent for post-war use as Coast Guard vessels. Also, instead of Ocean class vessels, how about a Magenta class with sponsons instead of gunports?

n7axw wrote:Two criticisms come to mind here. First, if you use wooden hulls, how do you cope with the church's explosive shells?

Simply. By not copying with in on gunboats - they are cheap, after all, and much harder to hit that the galleons! - and by armoring the hulls of ironclads.

Secondly, I think your timetable is unrealistic. I don't believe Charis can come up with the steam engines you need in the time you specify.

Er, I'm talking about the current time. When they are building KH's.

Charis has really rendered its own navy obsolete, but fortunately everyone else is even worse off so obsolete turns out to be a relative term. Unfortunately given the other demands on its industrial plant, updating is going to take time.

Well, if they have a limits for industrial plants, they shouldn't started to build KH's. This is not the ships that they greatly need - much simpler ironclads would do the job. And the main principle - not to put all the eggs in one backet.

Probably the best thing for now is to finish off the Haarahlds and get them over to Sharpfield and to push the ironclad programs as hard as possible in hopes of sending a squadron or so of Cities along with the Haarahlds as per original plan.

Well, you knew my opinion. The KH's should not be started at all. They are just draining resources from the more neccecary steamships. With all respect, but all World Wars clearly demonstrated, that the need for escorts is much greater that the need of capital ships.

I agree with you that the situation is less than ideal at this time. But I suspect it will take several years to completely convert over to steam. Until then, sail powered galleons and schooners will be relavant.

Don

Well, I inclined to think that you are too pessemistic. The steam machines of primitive type - not the complex triple-expansion engines they currently build! - could be produced even by the relatively inexpirienced workshops. Of course, they wouldn't be perfect, but they could be build - and also, by ordering small workshops a lot of steam eingines, we could train a great number of workforce.

Dilandu wrote:

n7axw wrote:Two criticisms come to mind here. First, if you use wooden hulls, how do you cope with the church's explosive shells?

Simply. By not copying with in on gunboats - they are cheap, after all, and much harder to hit that the galleons! - and by armoring the hulls of ironclads.

Secondly, I think your timetable is unrealistic. I don't believe Charis can come up with the steam engines you need in the time you specify.

Er, I'm talking about the current time. When they are building KH's.

Charis has really rendered its own navy obsolete, but fortunately everyone else is even worse off so obsolete turns out to be a relative term. Unfortunately given the other demands on its industrial plant, updating is going to take time.

Well, if they have a limits for industrial plants, they shouldn't started to build KH's. This is not the ships that they greatly need - much simpler ironclads would do the job. And the main principle - not to put all the eggs in one backet.

Probably the best thing for now is to finish off the Haarahlds and get them over to Sharpfield and to push the ironclad programs as hard as possible in hopes of sending a squadron or so of Cities along with the Haarahlds as per original plan.

Well, you knew my opinion. The KH's should not be started at all. They are just draining resources from the more neccecary steamships. With all respect, but all World Wars clearly demonstrated, that the need for escorts is much greater that the need of capital ships.

I agree with you that the situation is less than ideal at this time. But I suspect it will take several years to completely convert over to steam. Until then, sail powered galleons and schooners will be relavant.

Don

Well, I inclined to think that you are too pessemistic. The steam machines of primitive type - not the complex triple-expansion engines they currently build! - could be produced even by the relatively inexpirienced workshops. Of course, they wouldn't be perfect, but they could be build - and also, by ordering small workshops a lot of steam eingines, we could train a great number of workforce.

A couple of points:
1) Triple expansion engines are not that much more complex than a simple expansion engine (they just have more cylinders...), they are however far more efficient and can easily triple your range on the same amount of fuel.
2) Given the issues that Charis is having with privateers, corvettes armed with high velocity guns as convoy escorts would seem to be a better option. A timber hulled corvette is certainly possible and the hull form would be better suited to steam than the sail driven earlier versions.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corvette#Steam_ships
Armed ocean going tugs could be another useful development.

Well, ok, Dilandu, I understand that we are coming at it from different starting points. You are, as the thread title implies, exploring what decisions the navy should have made were they starting from scratch. I, on the other hand, was more into, "now that the decision is made and implemented, where do we go from here?"

For what it's worth, I agree with you that the Haarahlds didn't represent the best use of resources at the time. To address your question, I would probably emphasize the iron clads a bit more since much of the actual work is going to be coastal and brown water rather than blue water.

Don

Will the KHs be able to get into the Lake Pei and close with the temple? If so, after seeing the firepower available to the heretics, the AoG may simply fall on their knees..

If the KHs will not be able to travel into and out of the lake, then I see no real point for them atm, save leveling entire coastal cities, which the current ships can do, HMS Volcano anyone?

Side note, the next massive long range artillery gunship should be called HMS Pompeii just for fun

The King Harahlds are definitely overkill from a military perspective, and in that sense, poor utilization of resources. But, they are SO overwhelming that anyone and everyone will see that they just can't be matched--and that can be a good thing in time of war when contemplating a future peace.

Earlier ships are understandable, once the steam engine concept is understood, and with time, something can come up that will come close to it--or at least be seen to come close.

These ships are going to seem unstoppable--a symbol of the ultimate war making machinery that not even the mightiest fortresses can deter. I suspect that that is a part of the thought process...

ChaChaCharms wrote:Will the KHs be able to get into the Lake Pei and close with the temple? If so, after seeing the firepower available to the heretics, the AoG may simply fall on their knees..

If the KHs will not be able to travel into and out of the lake, then I see no real point for them atm, save leveling entire coastal cities, which the current ships can do, HMS Volcano anyone?

Side note, the next massive long range artillery gunship should be called HMS Pompeii just for fun

The Haarahlds could flatten Zion, but they couldn't do so much as scratch the walls of the Temple. To take the Temple would probably require a siege or betrayal from the inside.

I think the thought is that the Haarahlds can destroy coastal fortresses that stand guard over important cities...the Safehold equivalent to "shock and awe."

There is something to be said for this, I suppose. They certainly will have no peers on blue water for a long time.

But I think that as severely stretched as the ICN is stretched at the moment, I agree with Dilandu's basic argument that it would have been better to come up with a design for a smaller less capable ship that would still be head and shoulders above the opposition, but could be quickly produced in large numbers.

Don

n7axw wrote:
But I think that as severely stretched as the ICN is stretched at the moment, I agree with Dilandu's basic argument that it would have been better to come up with a design for a smaller less capable ship that would still be head and shoulders above the opposition, but could be quickly produced in large numbers.

Don

Exactly. The KH's aren't well adapted to the primary coastal type of warfare, that are dominating the Charisian strategy now. They simply too big to operate near coastlines, and the most farvatters currently in existence on Safehold simply isn't ready for such big ships.

I think the thought is that the Haarahlds can destroy coastal fortresses that stand guard over important cities...the Safehold equivalent to "shock and awe."

Of course, they could still flatten the coastal fortresses from safe distance... But the Church probably already realized the power of rifled artillery, and would simply switched to the disperced gun emplacements, protected by individual earthworks and camouflaged. Against this kind of coastal defense, the KH's would be unable to do any significant good - the long-range bombardment is good when the targets are areas, but not the individual guns.