Ehdwyrd Howsmyn question

Delthak was his main foundry/production site, what were the names of his other two large sites? One was in Charis and the other was in Chisholm. ( Actually, I think he had a large site for ammunition/powder in Emerald as well. )

They are mentioned in Snippet 23

Thrandir wrote:They are mentioned in Snippet 23

TY much.

THe former princess of emerald can use her wealth and influece to develop potentially valuable sites, while the new duke of zebedia could be advised by allies. Hector and his wife, could be the force behind such development in corisande. They need someone htey can trust to be the impetus for any effort in tarot.
IN the land of the raven lords, they could simply invest to get the lords ont their side.
set up a company, that inveests in such regions to develp them for the greatest rewards. Having extra cpacity could aid in the war effort, and their future expansion efforts. By the time the war if over, not only will their cpacity be the greatest in the world, but the more than the rest of the world combined. They can flood the market with goods so cheap yet earn a profit, crushing any local competition.
Make it while everyone else is just starting to become industrialised, they are fully developed and organised, forcing the mainland to begar themselves to even match the industries. SO their treasuries end up poured into the empire.

SYED,

You are right. The EoC can make investments that will end up beggaring the rest of Safehold. To what end? A beggared Safehold will see Charisian prosperity as not something to be emulated but a weapon used to destroy their ways of life.

Better to invest in the out islands to improve the lives of their subjects and those within their sphere of influence. Next invest on the mainland to improve those economies. The biggest risk will be that the mainland will use their increased production to wage a more effective war against the EoC.

That risk is mitigated by a small but powerful fact. The changes that will make the mainland economies more productive will make those workers more wealthy. Trying to industrialize but not provide adequate training, wages or safe working conditions will result in crap output. Consider a navy of steam warships that are unreliable in combat. Steel that is weaker than it could otherwise be. Guns that jam and break.

No, to be truly competitive, the mainland has to adopt almost all the attitudinal changes towards industrialization Howsmyn has adopted. If they do that, war based on religious differences is less likely. Secular wars might be more likely, but that is the nature of international politics.

SYED wrote:THe former princess of emerald can use her wealth and influece to develop potentially valuable sites, while the new duke of zebedia could be advised by allies. Hector and his wife, could be the force behind such development in corisande. They need someone htey can trust to be the impetus for any effort in tarot.
IN the land of the raven lords, they could simply invest to get the lords ont their side.
set up a company, that inveests in such regions to develp them for the greatest rewards. Having extra cpacity could aid in the war effort, and their future expansion efforts. By the time the war if over, not only will their cpacity be the greatest in the world, but the more than the rest of the world combined. They can flood the market with goods so cheap yet earn a profit, crushing any local competition.
Make it while everyone else is just starting to become industrialised, they are fully developed and organised, forcing the mainland to begar themselves to even match the industries. SO their treasuries end up poured into the empire.

SYED wrote:THe former princess of emerald can use her wealth and influece to develop potentially valuable sites, while the new duke of zebedia could be advised by allies. Hector and his wife, could be the force behind such development in corisande. They need someone htey can trust to be the impetus for any effort in tarot.
IN the land of the raven lords, they could simply invest to get the lords ont their side.
set up a company, that inveests in such regions to develp them for the greatest rewards. Having extra cpacity could aid in the war effort, and their future expansion efforts. By the time the war if over, not only will their cpacity be the greatest in the world, but the more than the rest of the world combined. They can flood the market with goods so cheap yet earn a profit, crushing any local competition.
Make it while everyone else is just starting to become industrialised, they are fully developed and organised, forcing the mainland to begar themselves to even match the industries. SO their treasuries end up poured into the empire.

Spoken like a true monopolist. Or robber baron like John D. Rockefeller. Yes this is possible, but crushing all other development on Safehold would b e case of winning the battle and losing the ear - since it would prevent the rest of Safehold from developing the innovative spirit that Merlin (and Charis) are attempting to foster. and there is textev to this effect in LAMA. At the meeting on manufactories, one of the Siddmarkian owners is attempting to garner as many secrets as possible with a view to competing with Charis post war, and Merlin muses that he was unaware that that was exactly what they wanted.

fallsfromtrees wrote:

SYED wrote:THe former princess of emerald can use her wealth and influece to develop potentially valuable sites, while the new duke of zebedia could be advised by allies. Hector and his wife, could be the force behind such development in corisande. They need someone htey can trust to be the impetus for any effort in tarot.
IN the land of the raven lords, they could simply invest to get the lords ont their side.
set up a company, that inveests in such regions to develp them for the greatest rewards. Having extra cpacity could aid in the war effort, and their future expansion efforts. By the time the war if over, not only will their cpacity be the greatest in the world, but the more than the rest of the world combined. They can flood the market with goods so cheap yet earn a profit, crushing any local competition.
Make it while everyone else is just starting to become industrialised, they are fully developed and organised, forcing the mainland to begar themselves to even match the industries. SO their treasuries end up poured into the empire.

Spoken like a true monopolist. Or robber baron like John D. Rockefeller. Yes this is possible, but crushing all other development on Safehold would b e case of winning the battle and losing the ear - since it would prevent the rest of Safehold from developing the innovative spirit that Merlin (and Charis) are attempting to foster. and there is textev to this effect in LAMA. At the meeting on manufactories, one of the Siddmarkian owners is attempting to garner as many secrets as possible with a view to competing with Charis post war, and Merlin muses that he was unaware that that was exactly what they wanted.

I can't help not notice a bit of irony here. What percentage of old earth would qualify as truly developed in 2015? Maybe a third?

Do we think Safehold will turn out differently? Why?

Don

Traditionally, economists break down the production of wealth into three “inputs”: land, labor, and capital. Economists believe that understanding how these classical inputs behave and interact reveals the historical roots of global prosperity. In order to build a farm, a factory, or a satellite network, all three are needed; how productive each factor is separates the rich man from the bankrupt.

If you are an entrepreneur, what matters is not how productive the average tract of land, employee, or loan is, but how productive the marginal piece of land, employee, or loan is. The term “marginal” refers to that land, labor, or capital available to you at the moment. It does little good to plan to farm in an agricultural district if all of the good land is taken and the only tracts available to you are of poor quality. Or to build a textile factory in an area with a skilled labor pool, but where all of the best workers are already happily employed. Or to plan a tract of apartments in a place where existing mortgages carry low interest rates, but the rates on new loans have risen.

n7axw wrote:
I can't help not notice a bit of irony here. What percentage of old earth would qualify as truly developed in 2015? Maybe a third?

Do we think Safehold will turn out differently? Why?

Don

Let's consider development. The 1,800 years between Caesar and George Washington ushered in a fair amount of change. Yet, both Julius and George could have owned land next to each other and recognized what their workers (or slaves) were doing. Fast forward 200 years from Washington to a Kansas farm in 2,000 CE. Those changes go way beyond what will be intuitively recognizable to either George or Julius. This progression relied in true innovation, not the re-introduction of know technology as is the case on Safehold.

The big issue will be distribution of these ideas and the economics to support implementing them. I believe that Safehold will spread these ideas much more quickly because the principle goal of those who control these ideas is not their monetization as was the case on Earth. Yes, incenting adopters through the free market is necessary, but the cost of developing the technology has been sunk by citizens of the Terran Federation.

Once The Great Reveal has been accomplished, the existing technology database is in essence open source. There will be very few financial limitations to adopting the technology of the Federation. Future adaptations or innovations might well be adopted more slowly, but not for the tech that existed at the time of Operation Ark. This includes PICA tech and the codes for AIs.

PeterZ wrote:

n7axw wrote:
I can't help not notice a bit of irony here. What percentage of old earth would qualify as truly developed in 2015? Maybe a third?

Do we think Safehold will turn out differently? Why?

Don

Let's consider development. The 1,800 years between Caesar and George Washington ushered in a fair amount of change. Yet, both Julius and George could have owned land next to each other and recognized what their workers (or slaves) were doing. Fast forward 200 years from Washington to a Kansas farm in 2,000 CE. Those changes go way beyond what will be intuitively recognizable to either George or Julius. This progression relied in true innovation, not the re-introduction of know technology as is the case on Safehold.

The big issue will be distribution of these ideas and the economics to support implementing them. I believe that Safehold will spread these ideas much more quickly because the principle goal of those who control these ideas is not their monetization as was the case on Earth. Yes, incenting adopters through the free market is necessary, but the cost of developing the technology has been sunk by citizens of the Terran Federation.

Once The Great Reveal has been accomplished, the existing technology database is in essence open source. There will be very few financial limitations to adopting the technology of the Federation. Future adaptations or innovations might well be adopted more slowly, but not for the tech that existed at the time of Operation Ark. This includes PICA tech and the codes for AIs.

All true, but not really my point. My point is to reflect on the vast areas on modern day earth that are basicly primitive both culturally and technologically. They have radios and TVs in 3rd world countries, for example. But were the 1st world sourse of those radios and TVs to disappear, they would soon have only the memory of radio and TV since they would be unable to make them themselves at which point these folk would go back to living as they have for thousands of years.

We fail to appreciate how fragile the edifice upon which we build really is. We assume progress to be inevitable. That is doubtful. Any number of factors such as war, social upheaval, cultural and religious reaction can stall or even reverse progress.

So, given the assumptions behind RFC's storyline, radios will eventually be built in Old Charis. But how about Northern Harchong? Or Sodar?

Don