Being Gbaba

From RFC from the most recent FAQ entry:

And I should also say that the same thing which explains the Gbaba's [relentless alien-killing] behavior explains the stasis in their technological development which was observed by the Terran Federation during its losing war against them.

So - while RFC's not telling, we can surely speculate - what would explain both of those and is consistent with all else known about the Gbaba?

Here are four notions, somewhat related:
One - The Gbaba hate and fear the unknown. Unknown aliens must die; unknown space must be avoided unless going there is necessary to kill aliens; unknown technologies must be avoided unless they are necessary to kill aliens (or get to space with them). It could be that the Gbaba only started exploring space and developing hyperdrive once their SETI program (to watch out for threats) uncovered them. Maybe this general xenophobia is learned (on the basis of horrible experience with aliens, theoretical studies, Gbaba religion), or maybe it's somehow genetic. For that matter, there's no reason to suppose it's got to be either/or.

Two - It could be a more specific fear that underlies both. Maybe there's a technological plateau for Gbaba intellects, and getting beyond it would require the use of artificial intelligence. But if artificial intelligence is anathema to them, they may also regard any other aliens as potential creators, users, allies, or tools of AI's and have to destroy them. Why they do not explore more actively is still a question here though - there's no way AI could be required for that, and it's a reach to suppose that distant scouting groups would get infected with it somehow.

Three - spoiler alert for Empire from the Ashes future readers



- the Gbaba are more-or-less Achuultani: they're enslaved to artificial intelligences that smack other lifeforms as threats to them, threats to their dominion, and/or a necessary pretext to retain their control. Technological stasis is maintained to preserve that precious and adequate (to the AI's) status quo; exploration is avoided to keep the AI's all on the same page; and keeping them all on the same page may be part of the technological stasis too - advancing the tech base may require or allow a next generation of AI to which the existing ones would be enslavement-fodder.

Four - a variation on one - the Gbaba hate and fear what they don't control. Aliens are not too subject to control - they have to die. Distant space is tricky to control - go smack it and its denizens when and only when they (perhaps including their EM emissions) intrude on your space. Further technological developments will upset the Gbaba status quo, whatever its basis is, which may not preserve the control their ruling class has or perhaps even Gbaba control of themselves, in the case of "monster AI". They have in effect adopted their own Proscriptions (albeit at a vastly higher level of technology), they have kept to them for thousands of years, they don't write dispensations or take bribes, and they impose pre-emptive capital punishment on anyone else for the possibility of violating them. (Or that and all the other ways they may escape control.) This one plays into RFC's comparison of Clyntahn to the Gbaba.

My bet is on some variation of Achuultani.

The whole Safehold idea can be found in the Dahak series, look at the Heirs of Empire (the last book), there's a planet (Pardal) ruled by theocracy that forbids technology.

(And there are traces of Safehold in The Excalibur Alternative too... even the ship computer there was eventually named Merlin.)

Of course, the idea was developed fully in this series, and at a grandmaster level. The story in Safehold is richer and deeper than any of the earlier books/series I listed

Aethor wrote:My bet is on some variation of Achuultani.

The whole Safehold idea can be found in the Dahak series, look at the Heirs of Empire (the last book), there's a planet (Pardal) ruled by theocracy that forbids technology.

(And there are traces of Safehold in The Excalibur Alternative too... even the ship computer there was eventually named Merlin.)

Of course, the idea was developed fully in this series, and at a grandmaster level. The story in Safehold is richer and deeper than any of the earlier books/series I listed

I'd agree on the Achuultani and other Dahak series parallels.

I think there's bit more in the way of Manticore and company versus the Solarian League in The Excalibur Alternative, than there is of Safehold.

My theory has been that thousands of years in the past the Gbaba created a society that believed it was the "Best Possible Society" for the Gbaba.

Since they believed that it was the Best Possible Society, the leadership set up a system (possibly including mind control) to protect this BPS.

Technology had to be controlled as any technological change would result in changes to the society. Since this was the BPS, any change would be for the worse thus had to be prevented.

While David Weber has used the idea that an intelligent species feared all other intelligent species because they "grew up with" a rival intelligent species on their home planet (said species attempted to prey on them) and he may have reused this theme with the Gbaba, the Leadership of the Gbaba see other intelligent species (and their technology) as something that would disrupt the BPS especially if they believed that they could not bring other intelligent species into their BPS.

Now it's possible that the Gbaba originally sent out starships searching for members of their species who had "escaped" their BPS, since such members might return to disrupt the BPS but said searches are now intended to find technologically advanced alien societies.

I say technologically advanced alien societies since the Gbaba apparently "missed" Earth when they last visited the region of space held by the Terran Federation.

While I suspect that if the Gbaba accidently found a world with intelligent life that they'd wipe out such life, it would be better to concentrate on finding technologically advanced alien societies.

I would say more but a non-sapient canine is wanting attention.

JeffEngel wrote:

So - while RFC's not telling, we can surely speculate - what would explain both of those and is consistent with all else known about the Gbaba?

Suppose the Gbaba are reflection of Safeholdian humans. What I mean to say is--suppose that the Gbaba expanded out into space and met a xenophobic alien race. They were wiped out except for a remnant who re-seeded one arm of the galaxy under a religious system that didn't allow them the use of certain technologies, say, unobtanium. Perhaps the aliens can detect the use of unobtanium and will come again to exterminate the Gbaba.

~Tonto

First a quote from OAR

Quote from the Prologue of _Off Armageddon Reef_

That suggested a degree of cultural stagnation which even Pei's ancestral China, at its most conservative rejection of the outside world, had never approached. One which made even ancient Egypt seem like a hotbed of innovation. It was impossible for Pei to conceive of any sentient beings who could go that long without any major advances. So perhaps the Gbaba no longer were sentient in the human sense of the term. Perhaps everything - all of this - was simply the result of a set of cultural imperatives so deeply ingrained they'd become literally instinctual.

End Quote

When I read "cultural imperatives so deeply ingrained they'd become literally instinctual", I thought of "programmed".

As I mentioned in the previous post, I'm thinking that the Gbaba had created a "Best Possible Society" for themselves.

It is possible that every Gbaba is literally programmed to fit their role in this BPS.

Is this done by command of the Gbaba's versions of Clyntahn or by AIs or non-sapient computers?

Only David Weber knows and he's not telling us.

DrakBibliophile wrote:My theory has been that thousands of years in the past the Gbaba created a society that believed it was the "Best Possible Society" for the Gbaba.

Since they believed that it was the Best Possible Society, the leadership set up a system (possibly including mind control) to protect this BPS.

Snipped by Drak

Kytheros wrote:

Aethor wrote:My bet is on some variation of Achuultani.

The whole Safehold idea can be found in the Dahak series, look at the Heirs of Empire (the last book), there's a planet (Pardal) ruled by theocracy that forbids technology.

(And there are traces of Safehold in The Excalibur Alternative too... even the ship computer there was eventually named Merlin.)

Of course, the idea was developed fully in this series, and at a grandmaster level. The story in Safehold is richer and deeper than any of the earlier books/series I listed

I'd agree on the Achuultani and other Dahak series parallels.

Clearly the Achuultani and Gbaba are similar: frozen, ancient xenocides. And I do think one reason the Dahak series hasn't continued is that RFC's picked up similar themes with Safehold. But how deep the Achuultani and Gbaba similarities run remains an open question. There is at least one dissimilarity, certainly. The Achuultani make sweeps; the Gbaba just lurk. The Kanga from Apocalypse Troll are another member of the family, with their own distinctions - quite a few more, they got better known by their Terrans.

I am of the impression that the Gbaba react to what they consider trespassers in what they regard their own sphere of influence. When someone trespasses they smack the trespasser even if it means going outside of that sphere to destroy the offending race's home world. But then they retreat to that sphere.

The Achtutani on the other hand, have made a mission of sweeping the galaxy to find and destroy sentient life for 70,000,000 years which is a different thing.

A disclaimer: I haven't been able to figure out where I got my impression of the Gbaba. I only know I didn't make it up. So if someone else shares my impression and has an idea where the evidence for it might be found, I would be deeply appreciative of being clued in.

Don

JeffEngel wrote:Here are four notions, somewhat related:
One - The Gbaba hate and fear the unknown. Unknown aliens must die; unknown space must be avoided unless going there is necessary to kill aliens; unknown technologies must be avoided unless they are necessary to kill aliens (or get to space with them). It could be that the Gbaba only started exploring space and developing hyperdrive once their SETI program (to watch out for threats) uncovered them. Maybe this general xenophobia is learned (on the basis of horrible experience with aliens, theoretical studies, Gbaba religion), or maybe it's somehow genetic. For that matter, there's no reason to suppose it's got to be either/or.

Don't see that one making sense...

The only way any species gets anywhere near the technological level where they could even consider the concept of a SETI proram would require them to not have any kind of inherent terror of innovation that was sufficient to induce total technological stagnation after they reached that point.

Two - It could be a more specific fear that underlies both. Maybe there's a technological plateau for Gbaba intellects, and getting beyond it would require the use of artificial intelligence. But if artificial intelligence is anathema to them, they may also regard any other aliens as potential creators, users, allies, or tools of AI's and have to destroy them. Why they do not explore more actively is still a question here though - there's no way AI could be required for that, and it's a reach to suppose that distant scouting groups would get infected with it somehow.

Again, don't think this one makes sense. There's not really any such thing as an 'intellectual plateau' that the evolutionary process wouldn't eventually bypass. Such a thing would require an imposed and then maintained artificial constraint on the evolution of the species. Which would take enormous sustained effort. And someone would have to be doing it, and I don't see it being the Gbaba. ("We must, at all costs, keep ourselves stupid..." and that attitude surviving for millennium...)

Three - spoiler alert for Empire from the Ashes future readers

- the Gbaba are more-or-less Achuultani: they're enslaved to artificial intelligences that smack other lifeforms as threats to them, threats to their dominion, and/or a necessary pretext to retain their control. Technological stasis is maintained to preserve that precious and adequate (to the AI's) status quo; exploration is avoided to keep the AI's all on the same page; and keeping them all on the same page may be part of the technological stasis too - advancing the tech base may require or allow a next generation of AI to which the existing ones would be enslavement-fodder.

Some variant of this really seems to be the only workable option... whether the enslaving party is rogue AIs, or some other unknown player...



For option 4, I see it breaking down for similar reasons to 1 and 2. if they were inherently so massively phobic to anything new or innovative then they wouldn't have developed to the level that they have in the first place. And if it was culturally imposed at a later date artificially after they'd reached their current level there's just no way it gets maintained over thousands of years without breaking down since there's constantly going to be at least some drive within the species to think of new things. Even before Merlin showed up, the proscriptions were chafing on Safehold after all. And that was with a full world wide memory wipe and artificial history being programmed into the entire population to reinforce things.

It would need to be constantly maintained by some external factor.

The Gbaba are frugal bureaucrats. They have in storage 100,000 Class A battleships, 100,000 class B battleships, etc. The Terran Federation was good enough so that Class B battleships were needed, so an adequate number were broken out of storage, oldest ships first, and sent forward into battle. At the same time, the Class B assembly lines were turned on to replace losses. Alternatively, the Class B assembly lines were on all the time. Because they are robotic and cost nothing to operate, they are left in operation, as they have been for the last ten thousand years, stocking Class B battleships against hypothetical future needs. Class C, D, E battleships were not needed, so they were not taken out of mothballs. Alternatively, in the 50 galaxies ruled by the Gbaba, the Milky Way is a backwater, so the Milky Way was shipped aged warships.