Question Regarding Charisian Strategies

Hey guys this is my 1st post here on the forums, Although I've been lurking on it for quite a while.

I do however have a question regarding Charis's Strategy during their war against the Church, although question might sound pretty stupid.

Why has Charis not attacked Zion or the Temple lands yet?

We known from A Mighty Fortress that the COGA's navy came from Temple bay taking the Hsing-wu's Passage east to Icewind sea and The passage of storms off into the markovian sea.

Why can't A Charisian Invading force assault The Temple from the same route? If they carry enough supplies and avoid land they could potentially evade detection till they are landing troops. And once Charis's have landed their troops theres no way the Church can get enough Forces back to Zion before the Charisian reach it. In which case Its checkmate for COGA.

The situation in LAMA seems a perfect scenario for this sort of attack as the Majority of COGA forces are in Siddarmarck being bogged down. Hell even if they don't Take the Temple it self just wrecking all the Infrastructure the COGA needs to Maintain its war is probably worth it.

Any thoughts on this? or has this being previously asked and answered and i just opened a redundent thread.

Jovanne wrote:Hey guys this is my 1st post here on the forums, Although I've been lurking on it for quite a while.

I do however have a question regarding Charis's Strategy during their war against the Church, although question might sound pretty stupid.

Why has Charis not attacked Zion or the Temple lands yet?

We known from A Mighty Fortress that the COGA's navy came from Temple bay taking the Hsing-wu's Passage east to Icewind sea and The passage of storms off into the markovian sea.

Why can't A Charisian Invading force assault The Temple from the same route? If they carry enough supplies and avoid land they could potentially evade detection till they are landing troops. And once Charis's have landed their troops theres no way the Church can get enough Forces back to Zion before the Charisian reach it. In which case Its checkmate for COGA.

The situation in LAMA seems a perfect scenario for this sort of attack as the Majority of COGA forces are in Siddarmarck being bogged down. Hell even if they don't Take the Temple it self just wrecking all the Infrastructure the COGA needs to Maintain its war is probably worth it.

Any thoughts on this? or has this being previously asked and answered and i just opened a redundent thread.

I'm not aware of answers in another thread myself, but others have a lot longer memory of forum discussions than I have.

The CoGA is a world church and it's declared jihad. Removing the Temple and the vicarate from communication with the rest of Safehold won't make everyone give up on killing heretics. Coordination may suffer, of course, and certainly morale would, but enough warning for key figures to get out of Zion would be hard to prevent to secure even that much benefit.

Zion's fit to withstand quite a siege, and much longer if they clear out the non-critical population. (Who may be entirely willing to get out before the heretic horde shows up, anyway.) The Temple itself is the strongest fortress on Safehold - heck, anywhere in human space, now. If the Temple Guard forts up in there, nothing Charis has will scratch it. I don't think Nimue's Cave even has materiel that would scratch it.

Hsing-Wu's Passage ices up. Forces there will have a modest window to get in and out, and the edges of that window are risky. And during the winter, forces trying to maintain a siege will be in very serious trouble, and stuck in place for Temple forces to surround them in turn. For that matter, the forces to really surround Zion would be very large in number and very hungry in total for food and fuel to stay unfrozen. That would get a lot better if Zion were occupied and the siege lines run right up to the Temple, but that also means urban warfare to get into that position, and the prospect of it against the Temple's relief forces.

The forces besieging the Temple would be unable to maneuver and unlikely to be able to retreat as well as those at, say, Thesmar. If they swooped in and seized the Temple at a go, and if that got the rest of the mainland to give up on the Church immediately, it'd've been worth all the risk. But short of that happy ending, it will mean precious troops put out to die.

I think my take on it is a bit different than Jeff's. Taking Zion itself would be easy. There is not enough Temple forces in the area to prevent a strike from the sea. And further, even if they see it coming, there is not enough time to prevent it from happening.

However, taking Zion is not the same as taking the Temple. All the Temple has to do is close the doors to that virtually impregnable shell overlaying it and nothing currently in the allies' posession can penetrate it. The question then becomes how long it would take to starve it out.

I do agree with Jeff that there is a question about sustainability for the allies once things freeze up. Nothing the Temple armies have at this point in time can dislodge a well forted up allied force. We've seen that repeatedly. But once winter sets in, the question of supplies becomes an issue and the burden of holding out in a siege situation would fall on the allies.

Don

Another point to consider would be that any attack on Zion would probably work as a rallying point for the Temple Loyalists. It could inspire a lot of people who wasn't yet forced to decide who they want to support to go with the COGA.

Eagleeye wrote:Another point to consider would be that any attack on Zion would probably work as a rallying point for the Temple Loyalists. It could inspire a lot of people who wasn't yet forced to decide who they want to support to go with the COGA.

Or it could inspre a lot of people who have been kept in line by inquisitors to rebel... Not everything has been sweetness and light in the Temple Lands. The shock of a sudden allied invasion could be very destablizing. I wouldn't be surprised at all to see civil war...also bear in mind that that in Zion when the vicars stepped out of the Temple, they needed body guards to protect them against the locals.

Life in the belly of the beast, folks. Not pretty. Interesting times ahead...

Don

n7axw wrote:

Eagleeye wrote:Another point to consider would be that any attack on Zion would probably work as a rallying point for the Temple Loyalists. It could inspire a lot of people who wasn't yet forced to decide who they want to support to go with the COGA.

Or it could inspre a lot of people who have been kept in line by inquisitors to rebel... Not everything has been sweetness and light in the Temple Lands. The shock of a sudden allied invasion could be very destablizing. I wouldn't be surprised at all to see civil war...also bear in mind that that in Zion when the vicars stepped out of the Temple, they needed body guards to protect them against the locals.

Life in the belly of the beast, folks. Not pretty. Interesting times ahead...

Don

It could go either way, or even a combination of both. A key thing to remember is that, in any number of ways, an attempted coup de main on Zion is a high stakes gamble. Strategists tend not to take them when they have realistic conservative alternatives, such as a war of strategic attrition and operational maneuver like they are fighting now. Not incidentally, it can also save or liberate Siddarmarkans from death camps.

Here are some points I would also like to add/point out. If I remember correctly, the reason why the CoGA forces are bogged down in Siddarmark currently is because nearly all the allies land based fighting power is being used to stop those forces in they're tracks. Siddarmark is still reeling from the black eye it got from the SoS. The allies, I don't believe have enough manpower to make anything like a serious attempt at Zion much less the temple.

Also to note, that the EoC propaganda campaign has been very successful in creating doubt in several nations around the globe. I would even say that they might be a bit overly successful in this regard. Because of this, a few nations are quietly sitting on the sidelines watching to see what happens, and hoping that the CoGA doesn't force them into making a choice before they can construe they're own answer from the chaos. A large part of this success is in coming to Siddarmark's rescue and then defending them in their most dire hour. It says a lot when another country is willing to commit the lives of it's soldiers to defending your country. It's made even more pronounced when those soldiers are motivated and displaying the desire to take on that obligation willingly rather than being forced to do so for a political agenda. This gets demonstrated to the local populace and then reinforces the morale of both the locals and your own army.

Finally, the forces that the CoGA can command far out number the allies current fighting strength. Even with the technological advantage it can't compensate for sheer mass of bodies. I can't remember who said it but at some point quantity takes on a quality all it's own. Because of this point, it's usually more strategically sound to fight a defensive battle than an offensive one until the numbers even out. You can decide when and where each battle will be fought, giving your various armies a tactical advantage as well as keeping your supply lines short. Let the enemy over stretch himself and blindly charge into oncoming fire on unfamiliar ground.

Once Siddarmark can at least get itself stable with feeding and manufacturing for itself, and has retrained an resupplied it's army, then I think they will take a more aggressive stance and push into the temple lands.

JeffEngel wrote:It could go either way, or even a combination of both. A key thing to remember is that, in any number of ways, an attempted coup de main on Zion is a high stakes gamble. Strategists tend not to take them when they have realistic conservative alternatives, such as a war of strategic attrition and operational maneuver like they are fighting now. Not incidentally, it can also save or liberate Siddarmarkans from death camps.

Agreed. That was what I meant by the "or" at the beginning of my last post. Zion would be easy to take, but not automatically easy to hold... Which is why forcing a resolution would be highly desirable. How the Temple is to be taken should be figured out before the assault.

Don

Jovanne wrote:Why has Charis not attacked Zion or the Temple lands yet?

For much the same reason the US didn't invade Tokyo right after Pearl Harbor.

Steambucket wrote:Here are some points I would also like to add/point out. If I remember correctly, the reason why the CoGA forces are bogged down in Siddarmark currently is because nearly all the allies land based fighting power is being used to stop those forces in they're tracks. Siddarmark is still reeling from the black eye it got from the SoS. The allies, I don't believe have enough manpower to make anything like a serious attempt at Zion much less the temple.

Also to note, that the EoC propaganda campaign has been very successful in creating doubt in several nations around the globe. I would even say that they might be a bit overly successful in this regard. Because of this, a few nations are quietly sitting on the sidelines watching to see what happens, and hoping that the CoGA doesn't force them into making a choice before they can construe they're own answer from the chaos. A large part of this success is in coming to Siddarmark's rescue and then defending them in their most dire hour. It says a lot when another country is willing to commit the lives of it's soldiers to defending your country. It's made even more pronounced when those soldiers are motivated and displaying the desire to take on that obligation willingly rather than being forced to do so for a political agenda. This gets demonstrated to the local populace and then reinforces the morale of both the locals and your own army.

Finally, the forces that the CoGA can command far out number the allies current fighting strength. Even with the technological advantage it can't compensate for sheer mass of bodies. I can't remember who said it but at some point quantity takes on a quality all it's own. Because of this point, it's usually more strategically sound to fight a defensive battle than an offensive one until the numbers even out. You can decide when and where each battle will be fought, giving your various armies a tactical advantage as well as keeping your supply lines short. Let the enemy over stretch himself and blindly charge into oncoming fire on unfamiliar ground.

Once Siddarmark can at least get itself stable with feeding and manufacturing for itself, and has retrained an resupplied it's army, then I think they will take a more aggressive stance and push into the temple lands.

The odds are down to just a bit over two to one with allied armies both better trained and incomparably better armed and much more mobil. By the time campaigning season arrives, Siddarmark's reconstituted army will be over 400,000, armed at minimum with a muzzle loading rifle with breech loaders on the way. The EOC as of LAMA put 300,000 into the field armed with breech loading Mandrayans and soon to receive M96 repeating rifles.

To conclude, that big Harchongese army can only count on about 600,000 rifles about 10-15% are breechloaders. Add to that that army is very slow and cumbersome. Think Harless rather than DE or BGV.

Numbers do indeed have a quality of their own, but only if they can be brought properly to bear. That is where the COGA is consistantly coming up short.

Note I didn't even mention artillery where things suck for the bad guys even worse.

We are going to see more of that aggressive stance in HFQ.

Don