first book: early plot question(s)

Hidy ho all,

Quick question. I picked this book up off audible. And was rather enjoying it. I think I'm 6 chapters in or so. And I'm getting the feeling more and more, that this book is very anti-religion.

now, I have nothing to argue about that point. People are allowed to believe as they like. But I'm a god faring man.

But then, I've been known to see shadows on a clear day.

I'm curious if anyone else got this impression? Or am I seeing shadows where there are none?

It's actually a very religious book. David is a Methodist lay speaker. As you get deeper into the book (and the series) you can see how David contrasts what the Church of God Awaiting espouses versus how it behaves, and it's clear which side he falls on.

mattig89ch wrote:Hidy ho all,

Quick question. I picked this book up off audible. And was rather enjoying it. I think I'm 6 chapters in or so. And I'm getting the feeling more and more, that this book is very anti-religion.

now, I have nothing to argue about that point. People are allowed to believe as they like. But I'm a god faring man.

But then, I've been known to see shadows on a clear day.

I'm curious if anyone else got this impression? Or am I seeing shadows where there are none?

The author is a lay minister.
He does not like dogma's.
He encourages his readers to think.
Keep reading.

mattig89ch wrote:Hidy ho all,

Quick question. I picked this book up off audible. And was rather enjoying it. I think I'm 6 chapters in or so. And I'm getting the feeling more and more, that this book is very anti-religion.

now, I have nothing to argue about that point. People are allowed to believe as they like. But I'm a god faring man.

But then, I've been known to see shadows on a clear day.

I'm curious if anyone else got this impression? Or am I seeing shadows where there are none?

Hi Mattig89ch,

Welcome to the forums. I hope you enjoy the rough and tumble up here. It's really pretty good natured most of the time...

You need not worry unduly about David and the subject of religion. In all of the books I have read so far which includes all of the sci-fi but none of the fantasy, David is intensely interested in the difference between good religion and bad religion and does a good job of sorting out the distinction.

I hope you enjoy Safehold series. David both educates and entertains and the main characters are well developed.

Don

PS.I am a retired but still working Lutheran pastor.

mattig89ch wrote:Hidy ho all,

Quick question. I picked this book up off audible. And was rather enjoying it. I think I'm 6 chapters in or so. And I'm getting the feeling more and more, that this book is very anti-religion.

now, I have nothing to argue about that point. People are allowed to believe as they like. But I'm a god faring man.

But then, I've been known to see shadows on a clear day.

I'm curious if anyone else got this impression? Or am I seeing shadows where there are none?

Much of the action in these books is based on the struggle between views of religion that focus on the authority of God's divinely ordained church to command and compel people's belief and those that focus on people's personal experience of God and resulting relationship with him. It is more complicated than that and there is a big twist, this being science fiction, but there are very clear allusions to some of the themes of the Reformation. What you are seeing that early in the series is the analogue of the pre-reformation RC church. They are the villains of the series, certainly, but the heroes are by no means anti-religious. It is not by accident that their country is named 'Charis', the NT Greek word for 'grace'.

Hi Mattig69ch,

Welcome to the forums, please enjoy your favorite simulated beverage on the simulated forum.

RFC is quite religious as other posters have noted, but as he has characters say in the Safehold series, he wants people to know that they choose and what they choose to believe are truly their own decisions, whether they believe in god or not, but that it is still our choice.

All of RFC's books in general are quite religious in the sense of good versus evil and people because they're mature adults choosing to fight evil at the risk of their lives if need be, the call of the soldier to defend what they hold dear against others seeking simple selfishness to absolute power and control over all others, so evil can tempt the whole gamut, including suggesting some to do nothing, etc.

I suspect you will ask yourself more religious type questions after reading David Weber than almost any other Sci-Fi author you can name.

L

mattig89ch wrote:Hidy ho all,

Quick question. I picked this book up off audible. And was rather enjoying it. I think I'm 6 chapters in or so. And I'm getting the feeling more and more, that this book is very anti-religion.

now, I have nothing to argue about that point. People are allowed to believe as they like. But I'm a god faring man.

But then, I've been known to see shadows on a clear day.

I'm curious if anyone else got this impression? Or am I seeing shadows where there are none?

lyonheart wrote:Hi Mattig69ch,

Welcome to the forums, please enjoy your favorite simulated beverage on the simulated forum.

RFC is quite religious as other posters have noted, but as he has characters say in the Safehold series, he wants people to know that they choose and what they choose to believe are truly their own decisions, whether they believe in god or not, but that it is still our choice.

All of RFC's books in general are quite religious in the sense of good versus evil and people because they're mature adults choosing to fight evil at the risk of their lives if need be, the call of the soldier to defend what they hold dear against others seeking simple selfishness to absolute power and control over all others, so evil can tempt the whole gamut, including suggesting some to do nothing, etc.

I suspect you will ask yourself more religious type questions after reading David Weber than almost any other Sci-Fi author you can name.

L

mattig89ch wrote:Hidy ho all,

Quick question. I picked this book up off audible. And was rather enjoying it. I think I'm 6 chapters in or so. And I'm getting the feeling more and more, that this book is very anti-religion.

now, I have nothing to argue about that point. People are allowed to believe as they like. But I'm a god faring man.

But then, I've been known to see shadows on a clear day.

I'm curious if anyone else got this impression? Or am I seeing shadows where there are none?

I agree with lyonheart. Although it is very dangerous to infer a writer's personal beliefs from the positions of his characters, there is a clear thread through all of DW's writing that the individual is responsible for his beliefs and actions, and that it his responsibility to decide for himself on the nature of God, and therefore what he believes God requires of him.

mattig89ch wrote:Hidy ho all,

Quick question. I picked this book up off audible. And was rather enjoying it. I think I'm 6 chapters in or so. And I'm getting the feeling more and more, that this book is very anti-religion.

now, I have nothing to argue about that point. People are allowed to believe as they like. But I'm a god faring man.

But then, I've been known to see shadows on a clear day.

I'm curious if anyone else got this impression? Or am I seeing shadows where there are none?

Definitely seeing shadows. Go on through the series to the seventh book and you still won't have met an atheist character, or one who does more than wrestle uncomfortably with his faith for more than a few weeks before settling in to be a good little theistic believer again.
It's very much my main plausibility beef with the series. The Mad Wizard has a very deft touch in so many ways, but he doesn't seem to want to have any characters who don't believe, however unlikely that is.

Incognita,
You have a point, though MWW did address it when the first reveal of the Brotherhood happened in a manner that fits with his glossing over of the religious side. Archbishop Staynair paraphrases an early philosopher about the price of belief as opposed to atheism. If one lives a good life and believes, but is ultimately wrong, one has still lived a good life. The 'cost' of faith, should one be incorrect about the existence of a higher power, is nil.
I, myself, have long been described (by self and friends) as an antagonistic - i.e. I believe in God and I am quite upset with Him about some of his purported followers. But, and this is the big point, I am still trying to live a good life and care for my fellow man.
The only character I would believe turning atheist in the series is Nimue; all of the others have faith drilled in from the cradle. That step will come later, perhaps. Even Houseman, the proto-engineer and uber capitalist, is far more of a 'what glories of God's creation can I find and reveal' type of scientist than the 'I can find no god in my microscope' variety.
Anyhow, the wrestling with faith is a shadow on the horizon in this series - MWW has already intimated that the war to follow the 'big reveal' will put this one in the shade.
Oh, well, off to work. As always, these are only my two bits.

Dave
*edited once for typo*

Incognitia wrote:

mattig89ch wrote:Hidy ho all,

Quick question. I picked this book up off audible. And was rather enjoying it. I think I'm 6 chapters in or so. And I'm getting the feeling more and more, that this book is very anti-religion.

now, I have nothing to argue about that point. People are allowed to believe as they like. But I'm a god faring man.

But then, I've been known to see shadows on a clear day.

I'm curious if anyone else got this impression? Or am I seeing shadows where there are none?

Definitely seeing shadows. Go on through the series to the seventh book and you still won't have met an atheist character, or one who does more than wrestle uncomfortably with his faith for more than a few weeks before settling in to be a good little theistic believer again.
It's very much my main plausibility beef with the series. The Mad Wizard has a very deft touch in so many ways, but he doesn't seem to want to have any characters who don't believe, however unlikely that is.

Given the premise of the book and the events at 'creation', I would be shocked if there were atheists at this point. The Inner Circle chooses who to tell their secrets to. They are all of a religious order. They might well have set criteria that filters out the weak of faith for the Truth.

Every other organization we have been introduced to have been given the proof we readers do not have that the archangels did indeed act on God's behalf to 'create' Safehold and mankind. Once the Truth is widespread, atheism will spring up. The way I see it, atheism can spring up only in the absence of proof of God's existence. The Truth will destroy that proof and give atheism purchase on Safehold.